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 CB350: The Saga!
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john
Forum Moderator

Victoria


3100 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2004 :  11:22:01 AM  Show Profile Send john a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
dumbo here, whats the advantage of the car coils ?
 

 
John Daley Sidecar #68 Chairman Historic Management Committee Victoria
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
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popeye
Level 2 Member

Western Australia


187 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2004 :  6:46:09 PM  Show Profile Send popeye a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
mick,

what revs do the valves bounce at, the 356cc engine had a 10500rpm redline, although I am trying to set it up carefully, the assumption is that a few stuffed gearchanges and overexcited moments will see a fairly limited life from the old girl, what do you think the thing will stand as a safe maximum rev limit??????
 

 
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator

Victoria


288 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2004 :  11:44:05 AM  Show Profile Send Ben a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Hiya All,

Maybe we should change the topic of this thread to CB350: The Saga? It sure has expanded! A bit of an update with my L, R, R, L ignition problem........ I swapped the condensers, still the same...... Swapped the coils.... still the same.....new leads..... still the same......checked point gap....still the same...swapped point wires (just to check!) HA, fired L, L, R, L, L etc. The Left points are opening just enough to let it fire before it should be firing.........I am thinking of replacing the points, but, could the point cam be worn? How to check?
Cheers,
Ben.
 

 
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john
Forum Moderator

Victoria


3100 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2004 :  1:10:51 PM  Show Profile Send john a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Give up Ben, get a sidecar at least you can always haeva passenger to solve the problems for you!!
 

 
John Daley Sidecar #68 Chairman Historic Management Committee Victoria
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
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popeye
Level 2 Member

Western Australia


187 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2004 :  8:25:59 PM  Show Profile Send popeye a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Cath is taking the donor magneto (KH100) onto the track in buckets so am stuck with total loss points/coils, how small a battery can I get away with to run a 20 lap practice without pushing back to the pits, anyone got some advice here???
 

 
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance
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matcho mick
Advanced Member

New South Wales


569 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2004 :  11:27:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit matcho mick's Homepage Send matcho mick a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
cool!!,i wondered where everyone went!,Popeye re safe revs?,i took the tacho off!!,(my hearings still pretty good?),as long as h/duty cam chains in?,i just rev till no more power!,you have to treat it like a twostroke!,(after a while you know when to change gears?)no problems in 3yrs so far apart from crank replacement,(another from the wreckers that felt ok?)bit too much "squish" pattern on one piston,(no carbon buildup),& not the other was the givaway?,re battery/,i'm using 12n7-4b,,std i think?,just + earth,terminals were reversed(it's out of my SR500 roadie),but i still occasionally charge it between races!, Mick
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matcho mick
Advanced Member

New South Wales


569 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2004 :  11:44:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit matcho mick's Homepage Send matcho mick a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Ben,what points gap are you running?should be around 12thou-ish,if lobe was worn,(less,not more?)timing would be retarded!,if point gap was too big it might get in a second shot?,try lubricating points pivot pins,(watch the pin circlip/shimwasher,really small!!) grease on the points cam lobe,inside & out too,while your'e there too!,hth?,Mick
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matcho mick
Advanced Member

New South Wales


569 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2004 :  12:10:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit matcho mick's Homepage Send matcho mick a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Ben,just had horrible thought,try and push end of points cam up/down for movement,if the cambox is worn,the camshaft might be wobbling all over the place badly affecting points/timing,moreso l/h timing would be affected because of valve spring influences on that side?(if box is worn?),or end of cam is bent?,check it out,Mick
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popeye
Level 2 Member

Western Australia


187 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2004 :  09:11:14 AM  Show Profile Send popeye a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Mick,

is there a machine shop over your way willing to do needle roller conversions, could be the way for ben to go if cam journals are shot. I dont have much drama with the 360 cos the guy who used to have the Honda shop here has a new head in his shed for me. If the 350 gives me grief later I may need to be a bit more creative. My spare 360 engine has bronze bushes in the cam journals and has been running with them in an off-road cart for about 10 years.
 

 
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator

Victoria


288 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2004 :  09:16:13 AM  Show Profile Send Ben a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Heya,

Mick, I pulled the points apart, greased them as described, then re-set to 12 thou...... still has the same prob. I will check the cam lobe movement tonight and order a new set of points just in case (they are not totally square, maybe this could be causing it). From the appearance of the old plugs I think this problem has been around for some time (the right plug was OK, but the left centre electrode was literally worn down to resemble a pin! Maybe because it is sparking twice as much as it should be).
Cheers Again!
Ben.
 

 
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator

Victoria


288 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2004 :  09:19:54 AM  Show Profile Send Ben a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Just noticed that I have been promoted to level 2, congratulations to me! Maybe I can get a pay rise at work now (to pay for one annoying CB350 I know of.........)
 

 
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matcho mick
Advanced Member

New South Wales


569 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2004 :  11:14:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit matcho mick's Homepage Send matcho mick a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Ben,check/compare polarity of coils,how they are wired in relation to points?,and if they're wired the same,or opposite?(just curious!),wouldn't necessarily explain mystery "phantom" spark,just maybe why one plug was trashed moreso than other?,maybe that coil is breaking down?,we need someone cluey here to explain all this? any help out there?,cheers Mick
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popeye
Level 2 Member

Western Australia


187 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2004 :  7:28:18 PM  Show Profile Send popeye a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Just a thought, are the coils really close together, like as in touching each other, if so the collapsing field in one might be generating a phantom spark in the other........there is a reason for mounting coils at least an inch apart.
 

 
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance
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matcho mick
Advanced Member

New South Wales


569 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2004 :  11:27:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit matcho mick's Homepage Send matcho mick a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
g'day popeye,missed the bit about head machining!,Ben's down near the border(nsw/vic)(5 odd hrs drive from me!),pretty common fix for hondas',needle rollers,not bushes,although plenty early m/sport XL heads got that treatment,was thinking about your new head,how about 250 head instead,same size valves,smaller combustion chamber to play with?tad more comp too?
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popeye
Level 2 Member

Western Australia


187 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2004 :  6:08:24 PM  Show Profile Send popeye a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Interesting concept to put smaller engine head on, wont do it to start with as the 360 engine is to run stock so I can concentrate on handling and learning to ride/race it. There are a lot of possibilities for down the track with a full CYB350 setup which is the plan for the P4 motor.
 

 
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance
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matcho mick
Advanced Member

New South Wales


569 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2004 :  11:50:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit matcho mick's Homepage Send matcho mick a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
popeye,more interesting concept is this topic has surpassed "the custom" topic ,over 100 more lurkers! ,(you think one of them would come up with an answer for John,re car coil use, eh?)
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popeye
Level 2 Member

Western Australia


187 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2004 :  07:53:18 AM  Show Profile Send popeye a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Eagerly awaiting our arrival as "Page 3 boys"

car coils = more windings (fatter spark), better heatsink (less heat variation, more stable spark)
heavier casing (less EMF, not so critical on older race bikes, no auxiliary electrics or EFI)
and the magic clue, car coils are better value for dollar cos you can get brand new ones much cheaper than new bike coils.
 

 
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance
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matcho mick
Advanced Member

New South Wales


569 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2004 :  12:34:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit matcho mick's Homepage Send matcho mick a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
g'day popeye,good call on car coils,(was hoping for better than a 3 way conversation but! ),Ben's been quite?,still in investigative mode i guess?,
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john
Forum Moderator

Victoria


3100 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2004 :  1:42:45 PM  Show Profile Send john a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Ta, me now understand
 

 
John Daley Sidecar #68 Chairman Historic Management Committee Victoria
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
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popeye
Level 2 Member

Western Australia


187 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2004 :  5:21:29 PM  Show Profile Send popeye a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
pleased to be of service John,

now can someone tell me what I have forgotten wiring up the magneto on the KH 100, have coil/condenser/points connected,lead to HT coil, good earth and the thing gives me three sparks on kickover and wont give more
 

 
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance
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matcho mick
Advanced Member

New South Wales


569 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2004 :  10:26:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit matcho mick's Homepage Send matcho mick a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
G'day Popeye,can only be condensor, or coil,check resistance on plug cap too! ,less than 5k ohms?,(unless it's non resistor type?),if it's really high that could/will kill the spark after a few kicks!,um the points are spotless?,hit everything with contact cleaner,
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator

Victoria


288 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2004 :  09:29:08 AM  Show Profile Send Ben a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Heya All,

Been locked away studying for a few days, glad to see the traffic is still high. Mick, I went to the wreckers and picked up a good set of points/advance unit/cam lobe...... guess what.......... no more problem. The phantom is now gone. Still don't really know what is was but am tre glad it has dissapeared! In regard to wiring, I have drawn a diagram (may be of use to other newbies).........Also, I found an XR200 electronic ignition unit (rotor, advance, plate and CDI) at the wreckers for 30 bucks...... can anyone supply a wiring diagram for hooking things like this up (can it be done without the magneto, just running total loss?)?

Cheers.
Ben.
 

 
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator

Victoria


288 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2004 :  09:36:10 AM  Show Profile Send Ben a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Can't work out how to paste the diagram in (Visio flow chart)....... Man and I work in IT.......... typical....... any hints?

 

 
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David
Site Administrator

Australia


991 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2004 :  10:26:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit David's Homepage Send David a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Yep, I have some... convert it to an image file and upload it to a web site somewhere and use the following command:

[img](web address of image file)[/img], or if you need, you can look at the text before this: You must be logged in to see this link.
quote:
Originally posted by Ben

Can't work out how to paste the diagram in (Visio flow chart)....... Man and I work in IT.......... typical....... any hints?

Strange, I tough that we in IT knew every thing..
 

 
Regards,

David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia

Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid.
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator

Victoria


288 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2004 :  3:29:15 PM  Show Profile Send Ben a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
OK, I tried to convert it but it just aint my day so....... wiring is; POS to frame, NEG to switch then spliced to POS on left and right coils. NEG from coils spliced to hook in condenders then straight to the points. Man, that was much easier. If anyone wants a cool wiring diagram, let me know and I'll mail it to you.........I guess when it comes to work I learn only what I need to, leaves more room in my brain for more interesting things!
 

 
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popeye
Level 2 Member

Western Australia


187 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2004 :  7:59:18 PM  Show Profile Send popeye a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Send us a piccie Ben, the only diagram I have is the one in my manual.

The XR ignition triggering system would see you needing to run a dual output coil with waste spark, as long as the trigger and CDI will run off the battery it should work. We have several early 4 valve XL250 bottom ends floating around and a box full of CDI components so I might go that way later.
 

 
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance
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matcho mick
Advanced Member

New South Wales


569 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2004 :  12:14:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit matcho mick's Homepage Send matcho mick a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Ben,go back and get 2 XL/CT cdi boxes,& 1 more trigger,get your std stator stripped,rewound with 2 source coils (as XR200 SPECS),mount other trigger opposite on plate,so you will have 2 seperate systems operating as a self generating cdi unit using std rotor,thats the way i'm going with my 350,(have same setup on MV now,using system from honda trike(basically the same as XR'S)WITH SL125 rotor,you will also need CDI coils too,
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popeye
Level 2 Member

Western Australia


187 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2004 :  08:42:19 AM  Show Profile Send popeye a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
I like mick's setup better, although it wont happen on my bike unless there is a definite need to put a rotor back on the crank.
 

 
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator

Victoria


288 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2004 :  12:08:35 PM  Show Profile Send Ben a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
Heya all,

First of all, is there a difference between the CB's standard generating system and a magneto? Would it be possible just to use the standard rotor/stator, through a dual output coil combined with the XR200 trigger/advance unit and CDI (they look to be an almost perfect fit on the cam?)??? Sorry if this question is a bit daft, but, isn't the stock alternator designed to provide enough spark to run the bike anyway (like a car??)?
Mick, is the purpose of rewinding the stator to achieve 2 separate outputs, or is it simply required to generate enough power?

mmmmmmm..........
Cheers.
 

 
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David
Site Administrator

Australia


991 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2004 :  12:39:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit David's Homepage Send David a Private Message  Reply  Reply with Quote  

 
OK,

Here is Bens diagram converted in to an image file:



Download Image: You must be logged in to see this link.
25.48 KB
 

 
Regards,

David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia

Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid.
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