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Current Topic Rating:  | Join the Forum to Rate this Topic at: Classic Motorcycling Australia Forums
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2002 : 7:27:18 PM
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I find it a bit disturbing that there is no discussion of the new MA rules about historic bikes having to be the capacity as manufactured, as indicated by crankcases used.
This rule is about to come in, in the next couple of years, and we haven't really thought about the consequences. Rex's Honda and the other fifteen or so clones which turn up to most historic meetings, will have to be reduced in capacity to 750cc.
While this might give better racing, I suggest at least half the normal entries to meetings will just stay home! The cost of converting bikes back is prohibitive and unnecessary, and will destroy our sport.
Competitors in historic racing have 'cheated on capacity' , since it's inception in the late seventies. How can we 'go back' now and recreate what happened back in the sixties and fifties, and do we really want to?
If you take this to its logical conclusion, we will be running under the New Zealand 'purist' rules (excludes Summerfield Manxes).
I still suggest it's about time we ran Formula Historic BEARS, and Formula Historic Japanese, in the same meetings, with 350 (Junior), 500 (senior), F750, and unlimited classes in both categories. Let's run Jap Bikes separately from Brits. Forget about 'periods'. Cutoff date 1980 for both (no 4-valve motors unless they existed before 1970).
This means Manx 500's run against Pantah 500's, and Ducatis and some Triumphs in Formula BEARS. Rex will have to run against Z900's, H2's and TZ750's In Formula Japanese.
Let's simplify the eligibility rules and start a reasonable competition. If we don't do it NOW, we won't be racing in a few years time.
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2002 : 10:22:23 PM
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Well this is a real negative attatuide to MA rules for historic racing! When all MA historic members voted this new rule in to be up and running in 5 years time they (MA) have allowed plenty of time span for adjusting to the new rules ,IF some people want to not comply with MA rules well be so. If racing becomes closer with the also runs some where near the front we would have better fields rather than a few ex A graders having cheap racing at our expence . Let the BOYS have their super modified classic and post classic bike BUT have a differewnt class for them say "historic modifieds" Racing in NZ is very strong and they dont use any thing but WHAT WAS RACED IN THAT TIME also the USA also very stricked on what is classic/post classic. If race rules were inforced as should have been WE would not have this suituation THAT we are now in . Sorry Alan BUT your thinking is WRONG
Allan Greening |
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Former Member
deleted
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11 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2002 : 06:35:43 AM
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I am not convinced that it will make racing any closer. A 750 honda will always produce more power than a 750 Norton Triumph etc. The fact that the big bore Hondas will have their capacity capped simply means they will go for the more expensive tuning such as cams, carbs, slipper pistons etc that they do not have to do at the moment. If I owned a Honda, for the present rules, I would simply use a big bore kit and/or a long stroke crank. They are really not expensive and produce enough power to beat pretty much any British bike. If however I had to keep it as a 750, the cams , big valves, titanium valve collars, keihin race carbs etc would still make enough power to beat the Brit bikes, but just make it more expensive. If we want to ban Hondas then we should be honest about it. The Kiwis did just that.
Personally I do not want to see that, but I understand that some of the big bore ones use later crankcases that do not look like the pre 72 ones. It is therefore simple: if they are not "visually indistinguishable" from original parts they are ineligible and the scrutineers should be enforcing the rules.
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2002 : 09:47:30 AM
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The Daytona Honda run by Bill Patterson Honda and ridden by Tony Cacciotti was never really competitive, even though it was a 'works' machine. I don't think it's true that a really modified 750 Honda would still beat a 750 Triumph or Norton in good tune. It'd be interesting to ask Tony did Peter Allen ever blow him away with the Mussett Triumphs. As for myself, I never saw a standard CB750 that my old 500cc Triton wouldn't absolutly blitz. Oversize engines are a cheap way of going fast. The titanium valves, good cams and forged pistons means that anyone who wins really deserves it. They have the knowledge required to improve an engine without just using the boring bar.
It would be interesting to see if someone can really make a CB750 competitive, if it was actually 750cc. The number of valves helps but there is a weight disadvantage, and a need for a good close ratio gearbox.
Sorry I think the Triumphs and Nortons would win!
Regards,
Alan Cotterell |
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Former Member
deleted
1 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2002 : 02:33:42 AM
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Can someone please enlighten me why there isn't a 750cc class between 500 and unlimited. Surely that would help to resolve the capacity discrepencies??
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Former Member
deleted
39 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2002 : 05:09:53 AM
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I'm afraid that I agree with Tony. At the moment people seem to justify the modifications that they have done to their bike by saying "Well....It COULD have been done in the era". Not good enough in my mind. I believe that people should run machines that are faithful representations of what was raced in the era. I'm not against modern reproduction parts, but they must be just that Reproduction parts. in 1972 lots of racers did modify their bikes by boreing them out.......yes to 810cc Back then who ever heard of 1072cc Hondas blasting around our tracks? Titanium valves???, back in 1972 one would have associated that sort of stuff with the Apollo Moon missions.
I actually think that when the current outragous modifications are stopped we will see a whole lot more people actually comming out of the woodwork. These people will be the people, such as myself who left Post Classic racing when a privledged few "bent" the rules by modifying their bikes so much, that their performance was dramatically improved over the original product. Sure they left every one in there wake, and it really became a case of "If you can't beat em, join em". so then we had 10 or so "Clones" at the front of the field......A long gap, and then we have those people whose machines are more in keeping with the "Spirit of the Law" rather that those who comply with "The Letter of the Law". No contest.
To me, Call me naive if you like, I always thought that Post Classic racing was designed to give the average bloke on the street a chance to go racing with fellow enthusiasts on similar machinery, at minimal cost. At the moment it means to go racing against a few well heeled gentlemen on their highly tuned, but questionably legal race bikes. Either you spend the $$$ to keep up or you don't bother coming back. As we have seen......lost did not bothwer coming back. they voted with their feet and left in droves. after all I didn't think that our sport was meant to be elitist. basically it is still a case of $$$ wins races at the moment.
Make em all go back to their original capacities......It will narrow the performance gap between the rich racers and the poor ones. The racing will be much closer, and really, isn't that what everyone really wants to see. More peole will dust off their old leathers and bring their bikes out of retirement now that they will be more competitive again. I do feel sorry for those people who have spent a lot of money in "Keeping Up with the Jonses", but lets just get on with making this a level playing field for everybody huh.
So sorry Alan. I actually think that more people will return to the grid, and these people will more that compensate for the numbers lost through this capacity change.
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Former Member
deleted
16 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2002 : 11:28:28 AM
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I also agree with Tony. I feel the classes are a throw back from early racing when 650 Triumphs and Nortons were competing against Vincents. The upper limit I think was 1300 CC.
It is possible to run an up to 750 class in an unlimited race and if one extra person enters because of this the club running the meeting has paid for the extra trophys or sashes.
Australian racing was built upon people racing modified road bikes and specials. Just ask the works riders who came to Australia in the off season in Europe how fast the locals bikes were.
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2002 : 9:25:27 PM
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A 750 class is a really good idea. I talked about it to Johnno who rides Gyro's Ecco BMW's a while back, and he said it would really suit them. In my own case, I have been entering my 850Norton as a 750 because 850's weren't about until 1973 (just not eligible). If a 750 class is introduced I'll build a genuine fast 750 short stroke motor (they were about in 1972) similar to the factory racers. It is worth doing as it would be faster than a long stroke 850, and it probably wouldn't destroy crankcases and bearings so quickly. It would also be a better thing to ride.
F750 was a class run in the UK in the early 70's, so we would be in keeping with tradition.
Regards,
Alan Cotterell |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2002 : 9:36:47 PM
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To Sidecar 81 -
Thanks for your comments, I absolutely agree with them. Incidently the Henderson matchless had a titanium rod back in the sixties, but I don't think using titanium is as bad as deliberately putting on big bore kits and using cranks from much later models to build a superbike that simple looks a bit like what might have been around back then.
Personally I like Rex's Hondas, they are beautiful, but they really make the competition uneven. When we get triumph tridents going that fast, it has cost a bomb, and building a fast Norton is just stupid, they destroy themselves so easily.
Regards
Alan Cotterell |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2002 : 10:51:19 PM
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one thing there never was a 750 class in classic racing up to 1963 "but" the side car boy's increased their cap to 650cc,around this time. The only 750 class was for post classic F750, in the late 60's early 70's (TZ700/TR750/H2R) So please lets get this thing correct, if we "all" want to have it a was!!. Classic were quincie ,campbell ,kavanagh,artchaball, spiller, curly on 500/pimm 1000 then came the pounds, angle, and so it goe;s on. that how it was in the 50/60 era in vic. Ps sorry but carn't rember all the other old farts but i was their some where! in the 50,s
Allan Greening |
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Former Member
deleted
16 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2002 : 11:52:50 AM
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I have a question regarding the new Ma rules re motor size must be the same as the capacity marked on the cases. I assume that if you have a set of BSA cases and they are say ZB32******, then the bike must be run as a 350ccand be that capacity if measured at a meeting.
Is it possible for me to sleeve a pre 1962 175cc ,3 speed BSA Bantam motor back to a 125cc and and run it in the 125 class or must it be a 175 and run against the 250s. I would like to take advantage of the extra sleeve thickness to put a few more ports in.
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2002 : 9:34:28 PM
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No That is what the "Rule" book is saying IF the motor was built as a 175 IT must run in as a 175 so there fore in the 250 cc class and as specials i built my triton in 1957 and used a destroked 650 motor to a cap of 498cc using a special crank But the crank cases were new and had no eng # so as it was built in that time 1957 i should beable to run it in the 500cc class but who knows! they may make me run in the unlimited class!! so when specials are built how will they police them like 350 velos into 250's 500 bsa into 350's? was this done in the period?? I dont remember any but remember a 350 honda twin destroke into a 250 with 6 speed gearbox think barry desilvo rode it a couple of times or was it barry ?? REG,, also will they allow clones of these monsters!! to be rebuilt? and is it worth the trouble.?
Allan Greening |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2002 : 09:59:46 AM
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I remember watching a race in the sixties at PI when Kel Carruthers riding the Hond 250/4 was beaten by Ron Toombs on the Henderson Matchless. Do you really think we will ever see racing like that again? I don't think you can really turn the clock back.
We won't all be able to build four-valve Matchlesses will we, just because they existed in the period?
I've got one more word to say on the subject of historic racing - If we don't get the rules right now, we never will. Let's think about what could be, if we really want it to happen.
I know the main thing we want is to get fun from our racing. But if we dont develop something of commercial value, I doubt we will be racing in five years time. I couldn't seriously go to Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd and suggest we run an historic meeting. I couldn't guarantee we'd break even, let alone make a profit.
Whatever the rules become now will affect historic racing for years.
In the mid-seventies I rode in the first ever historic demo at Winton with Steve Oszko, Strawb (Ray Thompson), Russell King, Richard Bendell. Since that time until two years ago, I never competed in historic events. The rules have never been satisfactory. The idea of five periods is silly. Eligibilty is ridiculous, everyone cheats on capacity. (Something which was really rare in the old days).
To build a classic racer is a foolish venture with the rules the way they are.
Let's promote a bit of discussion now, and get a set of rules that will give a better outcome.
Alan Cotterell |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2002 : 8:29:26 PM
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Some of you guys who read the messages on this forum, might wonder what I want out of historic motorcycling. For years (until the late seventies) I rode the short stroke 500cc Triumph, now owned by Allan Greening in Allpowers C Grade. Why did I do that? The answer is - to have fun. But it's not much fun being blown away by every RD350, H2, and Z900 under the sun.
Riding a similar bike in historic races these days is just as futile. Making a comeback on my Seeley Commando 850 is simply stupid when the rules allow mods which make some bikes resemble modern superbikes.
What I really want to see is a set of historic racing rules which will promote real competition for bikes which were around in the era. And which will promote development of bikes with some authenticity. Alternatively, let's develop a new historic formula with at least four capacity classes which allows bikes from all era's up to 1980, to run together, as they did in 1979.
This way we won't have to reduce capacities on bikes already in existence.
I suggest our major objective should be to provide a spectacle which will draw spectators to historic meetings. Our sport runs on money, let's get Barry Sheene, Phil Read, Jim Redman, Ago, Hugh Anderson and the InCA riders, on the same circuit at the same time, and let our good riders like Craig Morris, Peter Guest and Rob Hinton have a go at them!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2002 : 12:51:57 AM
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I've had an email from Bob Blythe. He seems to believe the new rule about capacity being related to the crankcase, is not in the rule book. Sorry, the rule is in the book, and it comes into effect in the next couple of years.
I notice there has been about 145 hits on this subject but only 13 replies.
If you are reading this, please feel welcome to make your thoughts known.
It is easy to register to make comments - look at the top of the page.
We have all been members of MA affiliated clubs, and the system seems to dictate that rule changes are submitted through them. However this site offers an opportunity to have your say, and discuss any changes.
We have been told that MA licence fees will ptrobably be $500 next year due to insurance costs. If we sit on our hands now the riders will bear the full brunt of the new insurance debacle. Lets make our sport more competitive. Lets make our sport more attractive to the general public. Historic racing can be very interesting for everyone, including spectators, let's develop a formula we can sell to promoters. It's about time we brought some money into the sport an reduced the burden on the riders.
Alan Cotterell |
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Former Member
deleted
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2 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2002 : 10:20:48 AM
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I seem to remember having this discussion before about cc capacity of the bikes that are raced and I don’t think it has been thought out very well by the powers that be. If these rules come in I cant see it attracting more people to the sport but driving more away, the discussion of cc is more related to the unlimited class than to anything else whether it be Classic or Post Classic,
Because the current rules allow you to run any cc from 526 to 1300 people have been doing just that boring the bike out to get more speed.
So for MA to turn around and say that they are going to change the rules now is ridiculous, these people have spent heaps of time & money on bikes so they can race in the unlimited Class and put on a good show that punters come and watch. I’ am more in favour of letting these bikes run as they are and
Introducing a 750 Class in which Joe Blow can pull out his old Honda,Triumph,Norton and B.S.A. and so on and go for a race on similar cc bikes and the fellows that have bored out their bikes can run in the 750 to unlimited class. This seems to be a more rational answer to what has been proposed.
I don’t think that anyone would like to see any more people leave our sport if we can help it so what is to be done about this ???
As for the $500.00 a year for licence your KIDDING????
Current racer
in unlimited classic
& sidecars (Swinger & not crazy !) |
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