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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 2:07:11 PM
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We are having a meeting in Vic soon and no doubt othr HMC's will get together. I would appreciate any feedback from the National Commisioners minutes. If you want you can come to our meeting, but we would ask that you have some written { MSWord would be great} papers so we can share them around easily. Give me a call on 9888 5297
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 08:57:00 AM
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Zoltan Petrie from PCRA NSW submitted this comment
Please find the following comments re some of the proposed changes. These are my opinions and do not necessarily represent majority of the PCRA NSW altough they are based on many discussions with a variety of members and my 12 years of experience with the PCRA NSW.
An interesting point to make is that contrary to GCRs and scrutineers' decisions over tha last 12 years I have seen that many Historic machines do not represent machines as raced in the period, as the interchanging of 'eligible' parts between makes and models allows for combinations not used in the relevant period. Whilst many see this as a point of contention, I believe that in fact this has led to the improvement of the sport as:
-Australia is simply not big enough to be purist;
-without 'modified' machines expensive GP ones would dominate, which in fact would cause disinterest in the sport
-racers often do not wish to race stock machines and this has added to grid numbers as much as it has caused losses;
-parts are harder and harder to find in original specification;
-the making of hybrids can often actually increase affordable competetiveness against 'original GP spec' machines which do not need further improvement.
Take an example of a recent NSW meeting where a highly modified (legal) GSX1100 was beaten by an equally skilled TZ350...
In fact, MA should delete from GCRs reference to 'machines as raced in the period' and allow the rules to reflect what has been allowed by MA to develop for over a decade now: Hybrids using any period components regardless of make and model. To again seek restrictions backwards will cause the loss of trust in Historic racing and MA and needs to be avoided at all costs.
I believe in fact MA should rather than restrict modified machines legal to date, create maybe a more limited production based class as some clubs have already done so with varying success. Both groups have their place in our sport and both are needed if our sport is to not only survive but grow, as it could.
HRR203 - changing senior capacity to 600ccs:
In fact NSW post Classic (P4-5) grids are reasonably wel lfilled in PCRA events, with an average of 50-60 machines at most meetings, excluding sidecars. I agree with the commissoins decision for no merit, but would recommend for future reference the introduction of a Semi-Production or Improved Touring P5 750cc class for non-GP machines, as introduced by the PCRA NSW and HRR at it's meetings. This might fill the void spoken of?
HRR205 - the use of Lockheed 4 fin callipers in Period 4:
I would prefer to see more people on an even keel, and so long as there is no performance advantage the use of such parts should be permitted. There is little room in this country for purism.
HRR207 - Changes to wheel sizes in Period 5:
Claims of 'There is no evidence of the use of rims wider than 3” for a 250 or 350 GP bike from the period.'appear incorrect as found by one of our members, Lech Budniak, without trying too hard. To quote Lech:
'Without looking too hard, I found a recent article in Performance Streetbike no 83 on Kork Ballingtons 1978 KR250. What a beautiful bike! This bike is still owned by Kork B and in his own words: "The wheels are lightweight cast magnesium, with the front wither a 2.5 or 3 in x 18 Campagnola or Dymag, depending on the circuit. The rear is a 3 or 3.5" x 18 Campagnola, which was also changed to suit each circuit. Kork's team ran Dunlop KR108 cross-ply slick tyres with a 3.25in to 4.5" option for the front and a 3.75in to 5.00in option available for the rear.So much for no evidence of rims wider than 3".'
A well ridden torquey GSX250s can easily beat peaky GP two strokes on short circuits like Oran Pk's Figure 8 track. The advantage may have been unrelated to wheel sizes, with rider skill, tyre compound choice and maybe questionable frame modifications having more to do with it. In fact the owner of said bike asked me at that meeting re some frame modifications, following which I believe he withdrew his bike from competition in that form.
I would suggest that backward changes should carefully be discussed, as the commission has suggested to it's credit. Backward changes, while needed, have already played a major role in fact to reducing grid numbers in the last 6 years. Whilst I agree that if modification to swingarms or frames are done, they should be in line with period modifications per make and model, I do not agree that reducing wheel sizes will achieve the desired result.
Riders need to feel secure that once they build a machine to MA's GCR specs, that they can stop spending money on it.This in fact is half the draw of Historic racing. I urge the commission's to leave things as they are.
HRR209 - Log book reviews:
I agree that some bikes/parts appear to be questionable in terms of eligibility even once logbooked. I believe the logbook questions should be more specific in asking re changes or additions to major components, to show source of non original or duplicated parts and pictures of front ends and rear ends should be closeups, with wheels-brakes and forks-swingarms and naked frames shown. I congratulate the commission on it's appointments of scrutineers.
HRR211 - Naming of Periods 4-5
The official change of name may be beneficial, but will not resolve the reason for promoters using these names in the past. Forgotten era has been often used to combine Periods 4 and 5 eligible machines in support or main event races, due to the good racing that such combinations provide and P4 riders' needs for more competition, given the low grid sizes for P4 unlimited machines. This has always benefited our sport by satisfying riders and spectators alike.
In fact, may I suggest to the commission to allow for up-era-racing where a machine may be entered in the period next up without having to change major components or fuels, provided the machine is eligible for it's older period. ie: Period 4 machines should be able to not only enter P4 races, but to also directly compete in P5 races without having to also be P5 logbooked, as this creates good and even racing, as proven at many meetings in support races, giving both competitors and spectators a good show and more value for money racing.
HRR214 - Definition of year of motorcycle
'The dating of replicated major components is defined as the year of manufacture of the original component being replicated.'
Agreed - it all makes sense.
HRR217 - Capacities
'Period 3 Formula 700 and Period 4 Formula 750 caters for this. As it caters for those that would like to compete at original capacities without adversely affecting those presently competing with ‘big bore’ machines that were built in accordance with the present rules.'
I agree with the commission's decision to leave things as they are - the creation of classes catering for more standard bikes should be encouraged and should be extended to period 5 machines such as the PCRA NSW is trying to do at the moment with the PCRA P5 production 750 class. Both 'unlimiteds' and standards have a role in improving our sport.
Regards
Zoltan Petri
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 4:58:58 PM
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I particularly like Zoltan's comments, they are well thought out. I suggest it's not so much the championship eligibilty rules that are the problem, it's the way we set up the events, and group the bikes in competition.
Talking to a lady involved in organising events in NZ the other day. She said that she is working towards grouping machines in events on their competitivenesswith each other, rather than by 'period'. I suggest that there is no real reason under 500cc Period 4, 5 and even Period 6 bikes, cannot all run together,( and over 500cc bikes from these periods could run together in the same races as each other). If you look what's around in large capacity bikes in Vic - you'd have Rex and the boys competing with Stuart Loly and the TZ750s, that Smick Laverda triple, the Triumph Trident from New South - we might even end up with good competition and a crowd puller.
In the under 500cc class we'd end up with something like a mid seventies race, with both early and late aircooled, and watercooled two strokes - AND THAT'S THE WAY IT USED TO BE.
I got all excited when I saw the period 5 two srokes at PI and Broadford. It was like going back to my childhood, and I wanted to be in it!
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Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 10:24:59 PM
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while theres nothing wrong with Zoltons comments, he seems to miss the whole point of historic racing.
theres a big difference between historic bikes/faithful replicas and old bikes that have been hotted up with parts from a specific era.
there is a place for both of these types of bikes but only one belongs in historic racing.
last year the formula xtreme series ran a class for "old bikes" and this series was based mainly in NSW.
perhaps the owners of these hotted up old bikes should aproch the FX guys to base their races there if they feel too many guys will stop riding?
i dont see that there can be one set of standards for the p3 group, a slightly less strict std for p4 whilst p5 can just "run what u brung".
i agree with the proposed changes to the rules.
many bikes will be required to change and some may drop out all together but surely its the best direction for the future of the classes. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 4:03:51 PM
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I agree with the comment about some people 'dropping out' of historic racing because of the rule change which requires motors to be within defined limits of the original capacity. Rex and the guys on the big Hondas might opt to put the 750 cranks back into their motors, however they could just as easily give up. These big Hondas have become the benchmark, and a drawcard. I suggest that after the new rule comes in they should still be catered for by allowing them to run in an open 'historic superbike' class.
I don't believe we can just alter rules that have stood for twenty years, to eliminate half the period 4 fields. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 5:20:15 PM
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| So I take it that everybody is happy to accept the changes as specified in the minutes and as agreed too by the National Commissioners. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 7:14:04 PM
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John, I'm happy to accept the rule changes as long as 'no log book, no ride' is not enforced at all meetings, for bikes which become ineligible through the changes. The rule I'm referring to is the one that sets limits on the amount that capacities can be increased from original spec. The bikes that have oversize motors are everywhere in historic racing, and I believe these should still be able to be raced in non-championship events.
When we start banning bikes that have run for years I suggest we'll do some real damage. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 10:06:30 PM
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i think to receive a log book for a historic bike, the owner should have to supply dated pictures of the bike he is copying. that way making a faithful replication of the original, not useing various parts from various bike brands and classes on his chosen bike.
with capacity limits, this should be goverened by what can be proven was used on each model during the represented period. this could also apply to brake modifications, if you wish to fit different brakes than std then you need to supply dated pictures showing these brakes on your model bike to use them.
if we can work towards a 'internationl std' with our historic rules, this will greatly increase the chances of international bikes coming here to race and make it easier for our bike to go overseas and race. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 10:34:17 PM
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| I dont believe there would be much support for "no log book, No Ride" to be abandoned. Am I wrong everybody? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2004 : 6:56:11 PM
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| Well, the next question is - will the new rules make the Trex Hondas ineligible in their present form? I suggest it's difficult enough to get young guys into the sport, without sending others home. When the new rules come in we still have to cater for what's already there. How about a class for P4,P5,P6 Superbikes over 500cc ? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2004 : 7:08:17 PM
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| Rather than people always coming up with new classes wouldn't we all be better off to concentrait on what we've got now. Believe it not we actually think the idea of leaving the big bore bike in unlimited and putting heaps of effort into the 750 classes id the way to go. Zoltans bit above pretty much says what most racers are saying around the pits as well. I hope MA is listening and not standing back patting each other on the bum as usual. |
Jayne |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2004 : 7:10:31 PM
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I strongly agree with HHHs comment about building replica racers. It should be enough latitude to copy anything that's road raced pre 85, anywhere in the world.
In the car racing fraternity groups like the Victorian Historic Racing Register won't accept any car at their Sandown meeting (held in November) unless it's Log Booked and Genuine - NO REPLICAS. In the motorcycle world we're two steps away from this - we don't worry about even building replicas, we race some stuff that NEVER EXISTED!
The reason people go to the VHRR meeting is to see the real thing - where can we go to see a real 'Green Meanie', or a Henderson Matchless? (they're in museums in the UK or Bathurst)
I know ALL road racing is about having fun, but there is a valid reason for preserving bikes of significant historic importance. If we cut them up for a bit of racing advantage, they no longer exist for the next lot of idiots to appreciate. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2004 : 10:14:57 PM
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i'm with snoozer!,instead of waffling on about new classes/500super singles et al,concentrate on what we have,sure sub classes ie formula 700/750's seems a good choice ,especially for entry level racing,leave the big boys/toys alone,hey we all need carrots?,if we must push some barrows?, how about 125's,not to many of them around these days,(especially P3)no one seems to mention them?,my 2 bobs, |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2004 : 11:49:37 PM
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| Mick, I can only remember very few P3 125s in the old days. There was the Walsh Bantam, which had a megga, no chamber on two strokes in those days. There were a couple of MVs both double and single knocker. I believe the Hunter Picanninny was a 125 manx type motor. I thnk that was about it in Vic. in the fifties. (I never saw a 125 Ducati) Allan Greening might have a better memory, but if you're thinking of building something genuine, it's a bit difficult. It's like sidecars - in the fifties and early sixties I can remember plenty of races with only four bikes. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2004 : 09:02:04 AM
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| rex mentioned to me yesterday that he felt the encouragement of the 750 cc class had great merit. He is concerned, though that in reality there may not be as many bikes as many hope. He thought that overall it may be the better solution to the situation. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2004 : 09:20:26 AM
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John, I agree with Rex and yourself, I cannot see any reason that 750cc bikes couldn't have their own trophy in races which include bikes up to 1300cc.
'Encouragement' is a good word for what people like yourself do for the sport. I don't enjoy getting blown to the weeds by Rex when I ride my 850 Seeley Commando in P4 races. However I would be happy to downsize the engine to have a crack at a 750cc trophy. I wouldn't care if Rex and the boys run off the front of the grid, they'd be irrelevant to what I would be doing. I suggest it's really important to keep Rex and his mates racing! Making it harder for guys to race, isn't the way to go. Do we have different coloured number plates for 750s than 1300s ? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2004 : 09:25:35 AM
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| There are about 7 guys with 750cc Tridents and Rocket Threes and Commandos in New Zealand, who want a ride at Winton in November. Is there going to be anything for them? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2004 : 4:23:09 PM
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Rex mentioned the 750 have different coloured plates from the unlimited, I have not looked at the GCR's yet.
As for the Ausie Titles, as yet the 750 is not a champ class, but some have been pressing for it. Ross Martin may be the man to talk with.
But why not have a trophy for them anyway, the " Winton Raceway / Alan Cotheral Purpetual Gunna " trophy for 750 cc Post Classic solos.It could celebrate the return to the track for you and the Norton I have heard so much about and perpetuate the feat for posterity.
I reckon it could go well Al. You could have the base a fly wheel from a Norton Commando, the upstands could be 350 Yamaha Rods and the upper section could have something from an Egli. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 03 Jul 2004 4:25:25 PM |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2004 : 7:21:00 PM
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The recent posts on rule changes have made me very optimistic. I really don't like being a 'gunna', and if HMRAV start running P4 and P5 350s in one race I hope to change that. It'd be worth paying the $300 licence and bringing the TZ out. A good competitive ride is very attractive. The poor old Norton will never be competitive as an 850, but if the 750 class comes that could change too. I just love riding it - you can feel the hairs growing on your chest.
P.S. I don't think I'll get a ride in November, does your club issue single event licences for historics at Broadford? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2004 : 5:50:39 PM
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| Alan, you know One event Licences are not permissible at Open national meetings,it has been to topic of discussion many times. Club racing with Hartwell is really the only meetings I know of in Vic that have them. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2004 : 10:16:35 PM
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i've seen some very fast 850cc T-Rex Honda's racing, i would think if the larger T-Rex honda's fitted the original stroke cranks, they wouldn't go much slower.
or if they kept the longer 1100 stroke crank, they would be competitive in the 'forgotten era' races, with bigger wheels and later brakes and forks.
im interested to see how other make of bike's would or could be affected by any changes.
if the proposed rule changes go ahead, i would hope this could be a start of a new begining in our racing. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2004 : 10:21:19 PM
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i agree with snoozer on the subject of the classes.
we should concentrate on what we have at the moment and getting them right first. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2004 : 10:25:51 PM
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its good that this forum allows for people to make their comments and express their opinions on these matters.
unlike other forums which prefer to put a stop to any disscussions that they may dissagree with.... |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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Former Member
deleted
15 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 1:38:22 PM
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| Its very positive to see the interest and participation in this subject, the next step is to formalise your responces. This is best done through your local SCB or HMC. The closing date for responces is 20/08/04. |
Al |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 5:05:14 PM
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| John, I think you misunderstood my question. Does HMRAV run closed club meetings at Broadford or anywhere else, and are single event licences available for those meetings? Are you going to run combined P4,P5 up to 350, at your club meetings? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 11:55:10 PM
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We have club meetings at Geelong sprints and Mt vtarrengower Hill climbs. You need to join the HMRAV as a full member, $30 to have a one event licence.
As for the mix of P4 and P5 ithas to go to the committee for discussion. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 12:01:23 PM
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John, If your club starts running P4 and P5 up to 350 in one race (or even up to 500cc), at club events. I will join and come and have a ride. I'd prefer to ride on circuits rather than hill climbs or sprints. I'm glad you and the guys are taking a look at combining the periods. I suggest it would be worth TRYING IT at least once!
Best Regards, |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 3:44:50 PM
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| Alan go to one of hmrav ride days if you want to have try. We went down to one a while back and its a grat day and plenty of people to help out and point you in the right direction. Reckon you could be a real drawcard to if people know your going. |
Jayne |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 4:29:41 PM
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| Szoozer, I don't think I'll ever be a drawcard. I've got life membership of C Grade. It comes through persisting with uncompetitive machinery. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 12:20:08 AM
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the original post included some comments about the wheel sizes used on a KR250 and quoted 'Performance StreetBike' magazine. i have done some checking of my own in some books i have including old 'motocourse', various Cathcart bike review books and REVS and AMCN from the period.
the wheel sizes quoted for the KR 247cc(250) are 2 or 2.15 inch front and 2.5 or 2.6 inch rear.
even the KR347cc(350) used the same size rims.
the largest rear wheel listed for a 350 up untill 1980 was a 3.5inch on Carlo Perugini's R.T.M.
i think the larger sizes mentioned may have been tire sizes and not rim sizes.
the original comments mention a dislike for 'purism' and talks of expensive GP bikes dominating the fields and therefore causing diss-interest. well like it or not, in the actual periods the expencive GP bikes DID dominate the fields but this doesn't mean it would happen again.
nor would it cause any lack of interest by spectators, infact this is what the public is hopeing to see when they go to watch a historic event. they want to see the original bikes raceing again, not an unidentifiable bike made up from different manufactures parts, used on a model which was never raced in the period in the first place. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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trifield12
Level 1 Member
Victoria
13 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 4:26:56 PM
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| leave the bloody engine sizes alone!it wont bring out more people to the sport, it will decrease the fields and probably the quality of the machines.trex hondas have been good for the sport and arent unbeatable as we have seen so whats all the fuss about and who from .as for the unlimited classics, how is a triumph or norton able to keep up with vincents or harleys unless there bigger.the drum brake rule was a disaster and so will this capacity rule! |
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