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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Sep 2004 : 07:36:53 AM
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I do believe that over time we will get democracy at MA, but only because we collectively force it on the table.
And I cannot read your statement about people who believe in Democracy happening at MA as being ****** in any other way than I did.
Also, I agree with your comment that MA executive have been trying to push an agenda that is different from published views.
Ridicule and applying pressure are two entirely different things.
But lets move forward, I beleive we do need a stated Philosophy to prevent the very thing that has been happening lately with bikes being cahllenged because of the opinion of either Ross Martin or David White. Particularly with regard to Specials. Their action was behind closed doors without consultation with anybody else, it seemed to be their interpretaion. Now others interpret the rules differently.
A Philosophy would stop all this, thats why I started a discussion about it in July.
For some reason the MA Executive now want a Philosophy but the one they have now published, we have to try and see if we can get agreement about it. I can suggest if we dont not have any Philosophy we will still have private interpretations behind closed doors.
Now the t |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 17 Sep 2004 07:39:10 AM |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 02:43:46 AM
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| We had a bit of a get together tonite and came up with what we rekon is a pretty good theory. If you're a believer in MA go away now coz you won't like it. The so called philosophy is nothing more than a MA office boy snow job. They lost the battle on capacity limits and other rule changes coz all the states disagreed and so we're told the comisioners told them to piss off as well, the MA philosophy is nothing more than another way for these idiots to get what they want. Big bore sidecars will be out and so will most of the posty solo's, classics under 30 grand will be out and so will things with say a trumphy gearbox if they are not a trumphy. How many of you seriously belive you can prove that what you own was raced in time exactly how the class says it should have been. Coz some people are really talking about taking MA to court we asked a car racing lawyer about it, he said it will be very intersting to see MA all of sudden come up with the proof that these bikes didn't race in their times seeing as up to now they have effectively agreed they must have or else they wouldnt have log books, seems that that court may slam the proof thing on MA and not us and we already know the MA office knows jack **** about bikes. You gotta wonder if the guys racing who wont be racing can put up more money than ma are able to. I rang our fav commish Al Kidd and asked why they responded to such a piece of crap to put in the rule book, he told me that the commish put out a draft paper for discussion and comment from everyone and said that it was designed to get comment and said drafts and finals can be worlds apart. I tried to ask why the changes were necesarry and at least this time was told to piss off politely. bottom line as we see it is that they changed some rules and gave us log books, now that most peoples have log books they want to change it all again, you gotta ask yourself why considering that the only people wanting this don't race or even ride. the old saying come to mind if it aint broke why fix it. |
Jayne |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 07:54:01 AM
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I believe the system is broke, and does need fixing.
Its too easy for somebody to "interpret" the rules. A decent Philosophy will prevent this happening.
Why do we need something now, because some people are interpreting things when in the past nobody really did. It could be that the introduction of Log Books precipitated this behaviour.
The bottom line is there are two camps now, those who want only bikes that did or could race and those who are happier with the mish mash of specials and originals we have now.
I believe it is too late to be purist, some dont. Now is the time to settle this point.
But when you look overseas there are combinations of both sysytems, so it has obviously been a hard one to get agreemant on.
So I again encourage everybody to put pen to paper, send your opinion to your State Historic Management committee so they can get things together to put a case, because they need written submissions to prove the legitimacy of the input. Email to me if you are in Vic. if you like.
John Daley Sec. Vic Historic Committee. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 18 Sep 2004 07:57:05 AM |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 7:58:12 PM
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| Hear, Hear John - very well said. AS a young guy I didn't take much notice of what the old codgers said, however there's a guy here in Benalla, who used to be the treasurer of the ACU back in the 50s. Over 85 years old, he still rides a BMW. He expressed his disappointment with the bikes he saw at a recent historic meeting at Winton, and I couldn't really disagree with him. What we really need to consider is why we never see John Surtees, or Sammy miller bring their rare bikes to our meetings. They go to NZ, which is apparently the only place in the world where the bikes are raced as they were 'back then'. I'm not purist by any means, hoever I believe we've got to face the realities, and do something to bring a sense of direction to the sport. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 8:07:14 PM
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| Jayne, we all get annoyed with MA at times, however nobody's a mind reader. If we all sit back and let it just happen we are certain to get someone wanting to control, to have a big say in what we do. I have confidence that MA as an organisation has the best interests of motorcycle sport at heart. I, for one will read their proposals with interest, and any criticism I offer will always be constructive. |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 10:54:39 PM
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reality check on NZ acrotel!,they have 3 basic classes of solos,1, factory,(self explaining),2 specials/modified (methanol allowed),and 3 clubman (petrol only),clubman is what your 85 yrs young beemer rider would recognise,basically std stuff,(ie 50's commuters,so now we don't have to ride the race bike come monday,so it's just a bit more racerized?),just imagine all the current aust competitors condensed into say Tas,(comparing size with Nth Island?),thats what it's like over there,with the same ratio of spectators,(upshot!,big crowds!!),thats how come they can afford to pay Surtees & Miller big dollars to race/parade their rare bikes,(they get something over 5,000 advanced ticket sales),try that here?,yeah nice if you can get it! |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2004 : 01:21:09 AM
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| Well Alan I think you should take your blinkers off and relise that there is more happening than just classic solo's, thats what your old mate is telling you about. anyway we've got a good mate who is a kiwi and he tells us the classic modified class is a winner, any drum brake etc, maybe everyone should look at their rules including you, but mick has already suggested that. but what are you on, in one breath you say if we sit back any do nothing some idiot will try and take control then in the next breath you tell us about your confidence in MA, have they offered you a job or something. considerin your opinions are pretty much irelevant coz you dont race why don't you consider backing off and let the people who are affected by all this fight it, from what we hear a lot would appreciate that. anyway when its all over you can say you were right, noone will really mind. |
Jayne |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2004 : 10:23:50 AM
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Jayne, that old saying 'if it aint broke, don't fix it' gets trotted out every time there is change in the air. That idiot Bruce Ruxton mumbled it when we were trying to get some sense into the Republic of Australia. The Japanese at least have some smarts, they believe in 'continual improvement'. Says something that there is no motorcycle manufacturing industry in Australia.
As far as this philosophy thing is concerned, it's no use throwing abuse about and getting excited. The thing is thaat, back in 1973 the Velo Owners Club (Derek Pickard, and Peter Lord) who started this historic racing bullsh*t in Victoria, probably should have given more thought to the concept. All along the way we've had rules developed to suit certain people, but we've never looked at what our real objectives are.
I'm involved in running the Historic Championships at Winton in November. The riders fees will be almost the sole input which will make the meeting economically viable. The problem is, jow do we promote historic meeting in which most of the machinery is far from original, and many of the races are spread out - no bunch of riders going for it? You certainly can't pull a crowd that way.
I know racing is about having fun, however I suggest we should get a clear picture of what a good meeting should look like.
As far as MA is concerned, if the riders come up with rules, or a philosophy, I'll accept the decision. I won't accept something which is just one person's agenda. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2004 : 12:33:58 PM
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I have confidence that if we all work together then MA will become even more representative of the wishes of the masses. But while we all argue, dont attend club meetings and dont read anything, a small group will have their opiniond heard.
In the time I have been trying to get people talking I have been abused for simply bringing the subject up. Is it any wonder that nobody listens to those people.
So I ask again get real, get to the club look at the alternatives, and put reasoned written submisions to your State Historic Commissions. That way the system of management that Motorcycling may work.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 19 Sep 2004 10:46:27 PM |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2004 : 9:32:47 PM
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This is a very interesting subject. As an ex Commissioner I can say that if you are going to rely on the riders having input to the degree that someone will take notice then you are wasting your time. Apathy rules supreme.
In the three years I was on the Commission the most difficult part was trying to get the states and clubs to respond to Commission requests for input. The only time this ever happened was after a decision was made and someone disagreed. During my time on the Commission I can honestly state that all decisions were made in good faith and supported the general concensus of replies received, there were one or two changes made by the MA Board from time to time but that is their prerogative.
I do support John in his efforts and you should all take heed and stir up your local racing communities and get their comments and suggestions put forward. This can be done as individuals, clubs or through your state body.
Alan |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2004 : 11:37:03 PM
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| Well guys you want everyone to use the nice polite system that MA set up to suit themselves and keep you all in your box, look at history they dont listen to what the states say. seeing as how at least we all agree on something is wrong should we ask MA to conduct an investigation into themself and get us to go along with there recomendations. lots of guys in sa and vic are saying theyve never heard so much anti MA talk as now, and most are blaming Ross martin and co for not having a clue about what theyre doin. you guys take the softly softly approach and the rest of us will go for the jugular by various means. least that means weve got both bases covered. |
Jayne |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2004 : 07:42:08 AM
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Sounds like the only workable platform we can get, its better than nothing.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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1 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2004 : 10:25:14 AM
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I am surprised that people are listening to the ramblings of Jayne,and not checking for themselves.
I rang MA and asked the questions that I had. I was very surprised to find just how much they do know about Historic racing.
Why dont others find out, and then speak out. Not the other way around. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2004 : 1:50:55 PM
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I notice that the Philosophy provides for responces prior to 1 Jan 2005 or 2006.
Realisticaly we would be struggling to get comments or even meetings sorted out prior to 1 jan 2005 with ample time for secondary comments. With the Southern Classic and then the Nationals time will be needed to think about the alternatives. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2004 : 5:21:00 PM
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Jayne, I don't see MA as a 'boy's club'. If you don't want them, the answer's simple, set up your own controlling body and do their job for them. I suggest, however, one thing - getting alternative insurance for meetings that would be affordable would be very difficult. You'd need to find backers with the same commitment to motorcycle racing as MA.
We can all complain about MA, however I'm personally as guilty as the rest of us for not getting involved. The club you belong to must have an MA delegate if its affiliated, why don't you stand for the office next year, and attend the MA meetings? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 12:53:16 AM
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| we must be pushing some buttons, lotsa support off the site and now weve got Ross Martins alter ego Timmy on the site, when I think of Timmy I think of south park. could be something in that the MA & south park connection. but now one for alan cotterell. you have a go at me by saying set up your own controlling body but only very recently you were crowing about the AAA and winton and how it would be the saver of everything to do with bike racing and you generally bagged the crap out of MA. are you changing your spots or suggesting we join forces. as far as me standing for office, i've been involved in junior comp for years, which in another thing MA is stuffing up but you dont want me to start on that one here. whats your pedigree. |
Jayne |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 02:07:05 AM
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Jayne,
Please dont give South Park a bad name by mentioning it in the same sentance as MA.
Im offended
South Park is pure genius comedy,
Rrrriblaaaah right on T....!Not!
PEOPLES....
If we can direct some off this agro into leters to MA and not at each other we may start getting somewhere.
Its not very healthy for our sport when we as fellow enthusiasts/racers start crapping on each other,if we do then all controlling bodies will start to treat us accordingly.
Think about it!!!
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Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 07:39:23 AM
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As I have said many times. If you get your jollies sticking it up everybody els so be it.
There are Racers who get off by getting results at MA somehow. So get your responces to the State Historic management Committees.
I can say that thus far, in Vic. we have had 20 phone calls but nothing in writing.
We are approaching MA to push for a 1 Jan 2006 deadline because there are many issues that can be covered at the same time.
If you read into the MA version there are plenty of opportunities for interpretation by somebody. We are looking at something that does not need interpreation to the extend it can wipe out existing machines.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 08:43:23 AM
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OK, I have been reading this closely and are starting to agree with ways to do things, and I do not see going for MA at the "jugular" as it has been put is the correct or right way to do things. I am not saying to not make your voice heard, but there is a better way to get things done. I know I have been guilty in the past of the "jugular" approach, but now find it better to write in a civilised manner and you get a better response.
I feel the best way to approach something is to work at your club level, get support from others there (at least 51% as majority rules), then get on a site like this and ask what others feel about it, so you get some idea on if it is what others want done as well, then they go back to their club and rally the support (after supplying a date to came back by and be realistic with the date), then the clubs that support it, all right in to MA's state bodies and also send a copy of the club letter to this site and it can be posted online so that there is a public record.
I know I would only be to willing to place the requests online, so the club not only will not loose them, but allows for open and honest discussion as some are saying this is not happening, but this would show it would be.
Get your clubs involved as some of you are obviously passionate about this subject, so it should not be hard to rally the support at not only your club level but at a state level and not have personal attacks anymore. I am sure that you know what I mean.
That’s my 2 cents worth and I feel that it would get more done in the long run. Who knows you might find MA is not that bad when you talk to the right people there.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 6:13:17 PM
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I enjoy Jaynes input, anf if eventually 'going for the jugular' is what it takes, we might go that way. Fortunately there IS a mechanism set up to put matters to MA. It's just that we've all been apathetic in the past. I'm happy to see Jayne active on this forum. I suggest it's a healthy sign that the guys want to have their say. It really bodes well for the future of the sport.
I believe it's really important to get this 'philosophy of historic racing' thing right. If you talk to promoters like Mick Ronke and Bob Jane or John Tetly, you get a different perspective on things. Conditions have recently changed in the motor sport world in Australia. Just the little things like Lindsay Fox charging $8000 per day (or whatever) for the hire of Phillip Island has an effect. Also John Davison just cancelled a viable historic meeting for cars at Sandown, to run V8s - this puts pressure on the other circuits to find time to provide other events. All these things have an effect on our particular interest. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 6:46:49 PM
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I received a copy of the 'Philosophy of Historic Racing frm MA - 16 August 2004' Reads as follows:
'The eligibility of an historic motorcycle will be accepted after the applicant has proven that the particular motorcycle was raced in the same configuration in the nominated period in Australia or overseas. Or that it is a replica of such a proven motorcycle.
Exceptions are permitted if allowed under these rules, and the components used can be proven to have been generally available within the nominated period of racing.
The express purpose of these rules is to ensure motorcycles are constructed in a manner that is technically and visually compatible with the period of racing being prtrayed. These rules are to be applied to ensure motorcycles are presented in accordance with the practices of motorcycle construction in the particular period nominated.
Where a motorcycle has been modified using technology and or parts that were not readily available in the nominated period, the machine must compete in a later period compatible with the technology and or parts used in its construction.'
I copied the text as carefully as I could - apologies for any errors. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 7:04:10 PM
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On reading the MA document, I believe the intended message is that 'if you are building an historic racer - if it something like it never existed, don't build it'.
The philosophy might give a few problems to owners of some existing bikes. I read an email from Martin Hone about John Trease's Harley, and I can see he will probably have a bit of difficulty, but there seems that room has been left in the philosophy for discretion, and it would probably be sufficient to simply give the bike a different tank and a paint job, and make it look like an XR750.
All in all, I feel that if we'd developed the philosophy back in 1973, we'd be in a much better position with historic racing these days. I don't believe it is too late now to move in a better direction.
I suggest MA are doing a good job with this one. I believe there is a bit of benefit in the move. We might actually end up with historic meetings we can promote effectively. As a spectator and enthusiast, I suggest genuine looking bikes make a meeting much more interesting. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 8:32:52 PM
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| Alan get a grip of yourself, under the MA office boy ego trip the Trease Harley is totally screwed, if you think it will be okay to make it look like a 750 Harley then you're also thinking it will be okay to make a big bore honda look like a 750, what you are saying is you agree with what we've got. if you think a different tank and paintjob will make it all better then you're totally missing whats happening. get it into your head, Ross Martin and the rest of the non riding boys club are tryin to turn back the clock to what happenened somewhere else in the world. prob is they dont reaaly know what happenened somewhere else in the world and they have absolutely no idea what use to happen here or do they care whats happened since. dont let them use you. |
Jayne |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 8:54:24 PM
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Jayne, I'm probably not as cynical as you are. I don't believe the eligibility rules will change overnight, and the 'philosophy' is not 'the rules', it only gives a sense of direction for the sport. I believe every change to the rules has had a lot of discussion in the past, and I suggest that MA will be under much closer scrutiny in future.
One thing has become very clear on this forum, that is there are plenty of us who actually care what direction the sport takes. I believe what MA has put up is essentially a good move. Personally I'd really like to see the Trex Hondas with four pipes, meggas, clipons, long tank and racing seat. This is the way the only kitted CR750 Honda was raced in the period (the Bill Patterson Honda which Tony Cacciotti rode).
I don't know how the problems (like John's Harley) will be handled but there are plenty of ways of giving a bit of amnesty or dispensation. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 9:22:49 PM
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| First off i reakon the philosophy will be a rule and second I reakon a amnesty or dispensation wont happen coz it will make a mockery of Ross Matins philosophy. but guess what, i do really agree with you that it would be real good to see the bikes looking like they did. i think these dead****s at MA need to develop a backbone and go out and ask the riders what they want and follow through honestly. not lose round one with the capacity rule, go off and sulk then try and walk over people with this crap philosophy. i hope you take MA of the pedestal you've got them on before yo look as stupid as they do. if we bow down to them they will destroy historic racing and move on to something else and reakon they did a good job. and you're right when you say i'm cynical, but then so are most people where MA is concerned at the moment. but try this one as well, i really think MA will relise theyve made some dumb mistakes over the past year, they'll fix em and everyone will get on with things again. |
Jayne |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 11:50:18 PM
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| Al, most people on first reading think the MA document is ok. But when they start to think of the overall implications on the bikes on the track now, its not good. Many think the horse has bolted, and many are generally content with the current situation. Also, if we "clean" up the fields who are we going to race against. Possibly the biggest concern is the "Interpretation" statement. That is wide open to abuse and allpication. I shall be back with something to consider after the Southern Classi. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 01:57:18 AM
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i may be off subject here, but in 1970 there was a thing called a JapAuto Honda that raced TT F1 and they ran their SOHC 750 Honda at 969cc, complete with 4 into 1 exhaust and full fairings. also Pops yoshimura started building CB750's to race the AMA when Honda wouldn't supply him with CR750's in 1970-71.
i think we need some changes to our rules here, like why a Kawasaki Z900 cant race in Period 4 when it was released in 1972? or a 1972 TZ 250 also cant race in Period 4? |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 7:38:31 PM
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I suggest there are two issues here. One is the capacity issue, the other is the replication one. I don't think anyone is really concerned about appearance of the bikes as far as competition is concerned. Rex would probably still win a lot of races, even if his bikes were limited to 750cc. He's no slouch as a rider, neither is Tony, but the 250cc extra he has, and the 40 bhp extra makes any attempt to get near him with a 750, a bit dangerous.
I'd love to see someone racing a Japauto replica against Rex, it'd be a real good go, but I cannot see why Z900s should be excluded from such a race.
I suggest there should be a class of historic superbikes developed to cater for the big capacity bikes, and it should have a cutoff date of 1985.
I believe Rex's bikes are a benchmark in historic racing. They are similar to mid-seventies AMA bikes, and should be kept in competition. A while back we discussed development of a good 750 P4 class, and I suggest that is the way to go. This would cater for all the old pommie sh*t, and Rex and all the other guys with Trex hondas could get on with some real competition. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 7:47:57 PM
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John, I don't know what Ross Martin's agenda for historic racing is. A while back I suggested to him that he should talk to the promoters about which way the sport should go. I believe at some point there must be a forum including promoters, riders and MA. The 'philosophy of historic racing' is important to the process.
As you know I'm employed by Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd from time to time. I'd just like to say one thing - please give us something we can sell to the paying public, something that will draw a crowd of spectators. Noone is going to subsidise our sport. It must be commercially viable. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2004 : 01:12:42 AM
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| At last Alan you're thinking like the rest of the people who race bikes. Let Ross Martin have his special little museum class which like him will never race, well maybe some of them will, and let the rest of us have a special or modified or ****hot class that will race and pay the bills to keep morons like him in a job. now follow johnboys advice and write to MA saying what you've said here. |
Jayne |
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