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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Aug 2001 : 8:39:41 PM
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I 'd like to raise an issue for comment by one and all. A few years ago mates of mine rode Jawas on speedway. They made a comment 'how good is this you do what you enjoy and get paid for it!'. In those days speedway was under the Speedway Control Council, not MA. I'd like to know if any rider apart from Barry Sheene ($8000 per day) gets paid to race under MA control.
At the Superbikes at Winton last month, it cost $28 to get in the gate and $15 to get into the pits. My girl turned up late and was let in for $20, she said she really got value for money, the riding was fantastic.
Perhaps we need to look at the quality of the spectacle each historic race presents and start charging more for entry to the circuit. In UK 25 pounds is common (per day).
I suggest we should pay travel expenses based on mileage to interstate, and international riders. I understand MA claims half the gate at most events - does this sound reasonable?
I suggest it's about time the sport started to depend less on entry fees and licence fees paid by competitors.
Alfonso
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Former Member
deleted
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13 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2001 : 3:49:07 PM
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Alfonso, Yes I to can recall the days when my mates road Jawas at the Speedway, I can also recall that a great many of them paid to get to the meeting and only got a start if some other poor bugger fell off and could not fix his bike or was hurt so that he could not ride. Riders such as John Titman could not get a start, yes the points money was their, but only for the few at the top.
The Speedway Control Council went under on its own accord and if MA had not picked up the peices there would be very little Speedway being conducted in Australia.
I attended the Festival of 20 years Classic Motorcycle Racing at Brands Hatch 7/8 August 1999 and it only cost 10 pounds to attend the meeting on the Sunday the exchange rate at the time was 40p to one A$1:00. 25 pounds is = to about $70:00. I was at the gate at the Queensland Round of the ASC this year and it was $20:00 to enter on the Sunday (Race Day) and quite a few cars would not pay that price?
It would be nice if the Promotors could or would help pay travel expenses to interstate riders, but they can and will find the money to pay exspences for international riders, there is always someone who will ride against them.
Re your comment that MA claims half the gate at most events - does this sound reasonable? of course its not, and they MA do not receive half the gate that is just not true.
Phil Read column in the August issue of Classic Bike makes the comment that at the Le Mans the Classic Riders were penned up like animals, and with a crowd in excess of 70,000 fans the classic riders were forced to pay entry fees for the honour of entertaining this crowd. The lack of financial support was an insult and just to add injury to insult the classic riders were well away from the action and facilities. At least that does not happen in Australia - yet.
I do have to agree with Afonso that far to many Historic Meetings in Australia do depend on the entry fees, and that a well supported meeting is a licence to print money for the Club concerned with poor trophys in the main being handed out to the winners. The licence fees paid by competitors has nothing to do with the Clubs, and let me say now that if you think your licence cost was high this year waite untill next year when the new Insurance cost componentent comes into effect.
Reckless |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2001 : 09:31:12 AM
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I note from another posting that Lakeside is in the hands of the receiver. I wonder of this has resulted from poor spectator support of events, and poor gate returns. I suggest as classic racers we should pay more attention to the spectacle our events offer the paying public.
While we are arguing over eligibility we may be losing sight of the big picture. I personally cannot recommend that Benalla Auto Club (Winton Motorcycle Club) should get into running classic motorcycle racing, in its present format. (And I have been asked to comment). The practice of running events with less than half the possible grid numbers (because of eligibilty considerations) is senseless. Lets get together a more competitive formula, which will provide greater spectator interest, and fill the grids (40 machines can run in one event at Winton, let's see what HMRAV does in October).
Events with only ten machines cannot interest spectators unless the riders have names like Sheene, Read, Agostini, Hugh Anderson, Rob Hinton.
It would be interesting to put Barry Sheene's fee of $8,000 per day up as prize money, and ring Barry and tell him if he wants it, he can earn it.
Alfonso |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2001 : 10:46:18 AM
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I noticed David's post about 'is our sport being run correctly?', unfortunately it is locked against replies. I would question the sense in paying $5000 in one year for four rides in poorly supported classic races. I probably got $5000 worth of fun, but it's silly stuff. I really think we'd be better off obnly competing in club events on a 'day licence'. I suggest it's about time we tried to get some of the international top liners over here. The main stumbling block seems to be our eligibility rules. The poms don't seem to have ant problem with eligibility of later era machines, and from the articles in 'Classic Racer' seem to run them against earlier classes. Let's change our eligibility rules to make them similar to what the poms are using. Perhaps we need an International Standard for Classic Racing Eligibilty. While people are content 'to race what we've got', and write the rules around those bikes we'll go nowhere. What we need is some 'imagineering', let's think about WHAT COULD BE! I'm not suggesting we should go 'purist' far from it. But for championships the GCR's aren't bad, but they are not a recipe for commercial success.
Alfonso |
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Former Member
deleted
31 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2001 : 6:59:39 PM
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Being the Promotions officer for the PCRA NSW I see a bit into the sport. Historic racing vs spectators will always be a sore point. Yes, even at modest gate costs, I have seen potential spectators turn away from very well entered meetings of P4 and P5 bikes. We have a great drama attracting spectators. Yes, some of this is due to relatively 'slower more spread out' racing, but more of this is to do with the fact that people have only so many weekends spare and have to make a decision as to where they'll spend their money and more importantly their time. Historic bikes simply don't hold the appeal of moderns to most. The number of people interested in older bikes is always going to be lower than the numbers interested in moderns. It's just the way it is.
Top names like Barry WILL in my opinion always draw better crowds and more entrants and PAYING them may be a good investment from a promotor's point of view. 'Make him earn it' ??? What do you think Barry Sheene's got to prove ?? He's been there and done that. He's racing just for his pleasure, I imagine, not because he has to earn start money...
Historic racing like many other pasttimes will always be a 'user pays' deal unless you can subsidise individual costs by increasing entrant numers [by giving them the oppurtunity to race against old champs or making racing easier and cheaper] and/or increasing sponsorship input, which is as often as hard to do as getting blood out of stone...
The only way of redirecting money to riders of average calibre is to make their entries and bikes costs cheaper, and to do this you need to get MORE BIKES onto grids in more affordable formats.
The 'REWARD' system of trophies only certainly needs to be improved even at club level to attract more poeople into historic racing. Instead of spending more money on bigger trophies, spend more of it into pooling for series prizes, as St George bankstown Wiley Park MCC does. Their series winners get things like NEW BIKES !!!!
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2001 : 7:58:22 PM
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I would like to ask anyone reading these posts to comment on the following: The Winton Motorcycle Club is now in existence. This gives an immediate problem. If we really want to promote Historic Racing, we need a formula which will get the paying public in the gate at Winton. We have the riders, we have the bikes, we have a promoter who is really organised, we don't have a racing formula to get a following. I think for too long we have looked at what suits the riders, it's about time we began to look at what gives the best racing, and what attracts the public. We now have an opportunity to make historic racing pay, what will we do with it?
Alfonso |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2001 : 08:06:15 AM
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| I think the $8000 appearance money probably looks just as nice to Barry, even though he has probably got a good quid. What I am saying is that the prize money for particular historic events should be sufficient to entice Barry to appear, and give all of us the incentive to GET REAL. I think Barry gets paid the $8000 to appear at Phillip Island, seems a bit much when nobody else has a chance to have a go at it. Of course he is not doing it for the money, but get yourself a Summerfield Manx and get in front of him, if you think he hasn't got anything to prove. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2002 : 12:41:20 PM
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i disagree with most of the comments about eligibility,drawing crowds and prize money. I believe we do not need to prostitue good bikes and turn them into modernd, I race historics for the fun, not prize money. I race moderns so I can get the hottest bike I can build and not ruin the class. Paying $8000 to anybody to attend is an insult and their bieks are not Historics, but modernd masquradeing as hstorics. I believe if you want faster bikes, move to the Moderns, dont wreck the historics.
Team Dalrac Sidecar #68 |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2002 : 01:14:24 AM
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I agree with John D if all our race bikes were as how they were in the time we would have closer racing , even with us old z graders ok yes 9/even 10 stud triumph heads are no advantage over the 8 stud!! ok allow 5 spead gear box clusters no real advantage! and WE all RACE for FUN not MONIE's bring racing back so we can all afford to do it!!
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2002 : 07:12:46 AM
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In response to the comments about riding for fun, the HMRAV, yes I know all the stories about thier poorly run meetings, are planning a TT where it is hoped that the entry fee will be zero. It will not be easy and we may have to compromise a bit, but that is one of the criteria. We will keep everybody posted
Team Dalrac Sidecar #68 |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2002 : 3:40:44 PM
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What's this story about five speed gearboxes being 'no advantage'? Why do you think the boys pay $5000 or $6000 for five and six speed boxes? The gearbox is one of the things which makes racing British bikes expensive. My Norton passed six bikes before the first corner when raced with a wide ratio box (low first gear). Trouble is the rest of the ratios were useless. Now it has a close box (high first gear), it's slow off the line but beautiful to ride everywhere else. Simply means you give the rest of the field a good start then ride your ring off.
There is no cheap way to go racing in pre 62 classes while you need more than four gears to be competitive. Even prewar bikes have five speeds fitted (what a joke?).
The other joke is about the eligibilty of Grimeca 120mm brakes. What else can you fit that is reasonably cheap and will provide SAFE braking.
I think the cheapest way to be competitive in the Pre 62 class, would be to build a Jawa engined Lowboy Manx frame, with five speed Triumph box and a Grimeca brake. All up cost should be $7000. So if you think Historic racing is a cheap way of having fun, and being competitve - forget it! You can do a lot of racing with an old RS125 for that.
What I am trying to say is that the sport must give some return on investment. It can only do that by creating a better spectacle and drawing better crowds. Bring on your Summerfield Manxes and Craig Morrises and Barry Sheenes. And let's get the garbage going quicker.
Alan Cotterell |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2002 : 3:54:41 PM
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I'd like to make another comment. Lets make Period 3 (pre 62) extend to include bikes up to 1969. And make all multi cylinder Japanese bikes run in Forgotten Era (1970 to 1980). This would mean we can bring our Triumph unit 650/750's, Tridents, Norton Commando 750's, early Ducati 750'. These bikes can only run in Post Classsic at present and are uncompetitive.
Also we should run Junior, Senior and Unlimited in all Periods.
We really need to rethink this eligibility bull! It's stopping a lot a good bikes being raced.
Alan Cotterell |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2002 : 9:50:01 PM
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Why cant they race against each other in the current categories and just participate in the event. Each class will always have machines being blown away, but the riders still have good fun and it looks great anyway
Team Dalrac Sidecar #68 |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2002 : 5:27:41 PM
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I still don't see many unit Triumphs at historic road races. Where are all the Ducatis? What class can you run a Pantah in? At the moment Forgotten Era is mainly Jap stuff. How about we run meeting with classic/post classic combined (like BEARS), and put all the Jap stuff into Forgotten Era? Could make for better racing all round!
In fact if we ran BEARS up to 1978, and JAPPO up to 1985, we might do some good (with Junior, Senior and Unlimited in each).
Best Regards
Alan Cotterell |
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Former Member
deleted
39 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2002 : 12:05:25 AM
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I don't think that the paying public should pay more. We have enough problems competeing against the multitude other sporting events which vie for the spectators dollars every weekend.
Entry fees should be kept as low as possible to attract customers, this coupled with good promotionl work prior to the meeting can significantly swell the coffers of any bike event modern or classic. The Key I believe is effective promotion, and value for money entry fees for spectators.
To put this into perspective, back in 1996 I was racing a 125 GP bike in the ARRC at Eastern Creek. The meeting was very poorly advertised, and many who did bother to turn up were baulked at the high, ($26 per person to enter + 10 for the Pits), ticket price. A total of 500 spectators came through the gate to see what was the top level of our sport in Australia.
In 1995 in Tasmania however, well planned and conducted promotion, allied to a $10 Ticket price that covered both the spectator viewing areas and the pits resulted in about 10000 (No exaggeration) paying spectators.
To me the sums are simple. A lower cover cost + good promotion = More spectators and More $$$
Promotion need not cost anything.......
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2002 : 12:49:59 PM
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Ironic you mention Winton last month,last years Australian histeric Titles at Winton,i looked/counted the spectators along the main straight on Sunday ,pretty pathetic i thought,looked about 150 people watching,maybe a lot more were wandering around the pits?,take away riders/wife/girlfriend/mum/dad etc,being so close to what i thought was a big spectator base?,Melbourne/lower Victoria why the no show,imagine had the spectators had to pay more to get in,how many would have bothered?,or were they all at lunch when i looked?,anyone got spectators numbers for that weekend?,it always seems like the riders outnumber the spectators,cheers Mick.
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2002 : 9:34:30 PM
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Mick,
At Winton we have a very good promotor - Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd. The year before last it ran the V8/Superbike meeting at which the fasetest cars and bikes ran together. The fastest superbike (Craig Mc Martin on the Ducati) ran 1min.23secs. a second faster than the fastest V8.
The two types of racing together pulled a very big crowd.
Recently the organisers of the V8s and the superbikes decided in their wisdom to not run the two together, again. (Stupid?)
Seems to me we have really got to have something interesting to promote, before we draw a crowd.
Regards,
Alan Cotterell |
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