| Author |
 Topic  |
|
| |
Current Topic Rating:  | Join the Forum to Rate this Topic at: Classic Motorcycling Australia Forums
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2003 : 11:30:56 PM
|
|
There was an earlier suggestion about trying to reestablish a bantam class with more restrictive rules to prevnt bastardisation of the class. Immeadiately the suggesstion came about establishing a 500cc single category. Some time ago this was discussed at lenth on the site, I took it along to a meeting and there was not a single bit of support. Also a mention was made about lack of bantams and it would be better to gbuild something else that may be worth a bit when finished. Personally I think if the motive to race is to make money, you may have better luck at the casino. But seriously is there merit in a bantam class.
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2003 : 10:24:03 AM
|
John, I ask the questions - how many Bantams are out there? And wouldn't they be better used as restorations? In the last Classic Racer there was an article on a beautiful Bantam racer in UK. It was watercooled, had CR box, trick frame etc. How far were you proposing to let the guys go with their mods?
One of the only Bantams I've seen here recently had all the Jap bits in it. So if you get restrictive that one won't be running, nor will the Harold Carter Special.
One thing about a 500cc GP/TT class is that at least we have quite a few eligible bikes already. If you are looking for low cost any two valve or four valve Jawa can be had for less than $1000.
I couldn't imagine racing a totally unmodified Bantam, even one on alcohol wouldn't be very rideable without a CR box.
Personally I've only seen one Bantam for sale recently, and that was at Barry Hartnell's shop in Wangaratta, a few months back.
I suggest the first thing we should do is canvass all the alternatives. You might be a bit irritated when I make other suggestions (other than Bantams), but let's get a few opinions as to what others think beginners could use to get into comp (at a price comparable with RS125s).
I seriously think CT110s are preferable to Bantams, at least they are four strokes and much less subject to cheating!
Perhaps we could develop a class which would take in all the four stroke buckets? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
 |
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2003 : 10:32:05 AM
|
John,
The comment about making money from racing -
over the years I have ended up with a reasonable couple of bikes - (still can't really afford to race them). I've done it by building a decent bike and then selling it to fund the next project, and so on. If you build the good trick Bantam, you really need to know there will be some demand for it in the future.
When you build something to race you will spend money regardless of whether its anything like a genuine historic racer, or a bitsa. Nice to get something back, so you can continue on.
|
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2003 : 10:38:41 AM
|
Just one other matter - it's futile to develop a class for which there are no machines, and a limited supply of road machines which can be converted for the class. If you wanted to take up bucket racing, just try to buy a H100.
We need to find something which is historic, but as common as horse sh*t (not so common these days). (Might be better to look at post classic era).
MY SUGGESTION - STAY AWAY FROM TWO STROKES - TOO EASY TO CHEAT. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2003 : 4:39:46 PM
|
| I know nuddin I'm a sidecar rider!! The idea came from a solo bloke. As for how far can you go. I thought the initial comment about rules to stop the bastardisation would have been clear enough. When a bantam has Cr rods 6 speed box etc I would not call it a bantam its a hottie and they can race now. Personally I feel the friggin with the spirit of the rules is friggin with the sport. Why cant Bantams be just Bantams. As for numbers I know nutten. Its for you solo riders to find there are limited numbers. But if they can find more Manx's than were ever really made surely bantams should be easy to find. Dont forget I am talking about period racing here. Not period racing with big bucks. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2003 : 10:00:25 PM
|
A few years ago there was a movie called 'On Any Sunday'. In it there was mention of guys who kept racing by supplying trick components to other racers.
In Victoria I only know of two guys doing this with anything other than fibreglass - Bob Martin and Rex.
The 500 GP/TT class could provide opportunity for a few guys to make money. I'm sure Bob Martin could make a replica seeley or rickman frame for about $1800. Your Jawa engine would cost $1000, your gearbox $600, forks yokes, seat and tank and wheels, you would probably get for an extra $2000. For about $5000 you'd have a bike which was typical of something raced in the early sixties.
The point I'm making is that the class of racing would have engineering support, and what was being raced would be almost homologated (as are the TRex Hondas).
As a sidecar racer John, you will remember Don and Phil Barlow, and Lindsay Urquardt. How many guys are still building sidecar frames? Most of what Don and Phil built weren't even eligible for historic racing until recently.
While we get around with closed minds and try to exclude machines later than 1962, the sport will never come alive.
Don't kid yourself. Anything you choose to race these days will cost $5000. If it costs less it's probably a hazard.
The exercise of building one of these bikes would provide the young guys with a bit of good experience. Perhaps someone should write a book on how to do it, and the pitfalls? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 12:00:07 AM
|
Alan if we are going to talk about money and old bikes can we move it to another topic. This topic is about Bantams, nothing else please!!!
You speak of no machines being available etc and it wont work, remember we all promised a while ago to try and explain why an idea may work rather than can it from the start. If blokes want to fiddle with hot 125's they can now, I was simply passing on an idea that has become a damned monster. I reckon I should have stuck to my earlier committment of saying bloody nothing about solos again. IAM GOING TO TRY AND DO THAT ITS NOT WORTH THE HASSLE AND EXPLANATION TIME. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
Former Member
deleted
![]()
1 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 6:55:03 PM
|
Over here in the UK the bantam class thrives in two formats, firstly as a 125 class that allows those of us that want to develop the class within the resrictions some slack to do just that, and a 175 version with much more restrictive rules that allows beginers to enter the class and build a machine they can afford, and that is competitive with the more purist 125s. the rules can be found in the ACU (united kingdom) handbook. there is a genuine market for the machines when they become (rarely) available. they are amazingly fast and competitive. if we had kept the engine internals standard the class would have died years ago as the standard stuff (cranks pistons etc) are too weak even for a very lowly tuned engine, this part of the formula is left open to the individual.
quote:
Originally posted by john
There was an earlier suggestion about trying to reestablish a bantam class with more restrictive rules to prevnt bastardisation of the class. Immeadiately the suggesstion came about establishing a 500cc single category. Some time ago this was discussed at lenth on the site, I took it along to a meeting and there was not a single bit of support. Also a mention was made about lack of bantams and it would be better to gbuild something else that may be worth a bit when finished. Personally I think if the motive to race is to make money, you may have better luck at the casino. But seriously is there merit in a bantam class.
|
alan brown |
|
|
|
Former Member
deleted
39 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 9:10:30 PM
|
What's all this talk about 2 strokes cheating????? I'ts just as easy to cheat with a 4 stroke as with a 2 stroke.
Why not try to encourage people who have unused period 3, 4 and 5 bikes in their sheds to get them out, race them themselves, or encourage these people to sell the bikes on to people who will race them.
Special classes are not needed. A plentiful supply of cheap, (relatively), cheap race bikes are what is needed to fill up the grids again.
Regards,
John Swensen |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 12:37:21 AM
|
john, It doesn't matter what you race it costs money. Why would you do it if you are never going to be competitive with your machine? I own a Mk3 Seeley. In 1968 these frames were fitted with G50 Matchless engines and became the best ever British single cylinder racer. Paul Smart actually won a GP in Czechoslovakia in 1972 with one, against the two strokes.
A Matchless G50 motor costs about $23,000 these days for anything reasonably decent. Should I buy one? What class would my genuine replica GP bike be competitive in? Why would I bother. I'll just continue to run my 850 Commando motor and get soundly P*SSED of by Rex and the boys every time I bring it out.
Let's face it this historic motorcycle racing is all B*LLSH*T. It doesn't even resemble what happened 'in the era'!! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Former Member
deleted
39 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 8:25:09 PM
|
Well....I have to say Alan, that I have won races on bikes that cost under $1000, (Post Classic). A lot of blokes are happy to start on machines that are "Low Spec", and once they gain confidence, then they can either update or develop their race machinery.
To put this into perspective, I have just bought a rather tatty 1972 Yamaha R5 350 for $1200. For me to make this a competitive machine, even allowing for all of the work to be done by tradesmen, (I'm mechanically inept), it will end up owing me about $4000 to $5000 I feel that this will be a machine that will be good enough to mix with the best on. My Yamaha TA125 which Victorian Peter Scott rides for me is a regular top 3 runner at National level. It owes me a grand total of $2000. Racing can be cheap. Novices do not have to aim for the best "Pukka" machinery out there to get started.
My machies have always been well presented, and I think that a converted road bike is the way to go for a beginner. That was how I began my racing way back in 1984. I raced 125cc Grand Prix Bikes in the ARRCs in 1994-1997. I rode a machine that had no hope of winning, normally I would finish mid pack at this level. Did I give up......No. There was always a chance that it could rain, and then I knew that I would be close to the front. Otherwise All of the faster guys on kitted machinery would slowly dissapear into the distance. I didn't mind. My theory was thar it was better to be midpack against the best that the country had to offer, than to be first amongst the rest. My best ever finish in ARRCs was a 7th place. I prize that far more than winning club races, (I have won a few), or finishing 2nd in the 96 Queensland 125 GP title.
Not everyone wants to win everything, Not everyone wants to give up is they are not on the best bike. Some of us will never have the money to buy top machinery. Some of us just like to compete. that's all
John Swensen
PS I do not think historic racing is B*llsh*t. If you are not happy about it, then try to change the situation. Very negative views tend to discourage new people from taking up the sport. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
