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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 1:40:17 PM
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A while back I wrote to MV about the possibilty of getting single event licences for historic road racing. I got an acknowledgement of my letter but nothing else. No reply as to whether the idea was acceptable.
I've decided that next year I won't be racing in historic events, It's just TOO EXPENSIVE. Instead I will ride in the Interclub, where you can get a single event licence for $40, and about an $80 entry! There are a couple of Ducatis which run there, and I can have just as much fun with them, rather than seeing The 1100cc Hondas disappear into the distance.
I believe the reason we didn't get single event licences is that some motocross idiot yelped, SO MUCH FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS of MA/MV!!!
My spare $350 won't be paid to MA/MV, it'll be paid off my bankcard!
Best Regards,
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 6:03:41 PM
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| Dear Angry Al,thank you for your letter, it is unfortunate that you will miss another year of racing, but who said racing was not expensive, perhaps you need to get a sugar mummy who can help with the dosh. Its worked for others.I went to the Hartwell presentation night on Saturday, one bloke thanked his ex- wife for throwing him out, thats when he could go racing again. But I must remind you about the need to get a log book if you race in any historic class.Your comment about the democratic process of MA/ MV is noted, but dont forget there are more moto x riders, thats the problem with democracy, the majority rules. I suggest you cut up your Bankcard, it will be a lot easier. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 7:10:32 PM
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I won't miss another year of racing. Winton Motorcycle Club has written to the two groups using our circuit, and asked to be invited to participate. Both Hartwell, and the Interclub have single event licences for meetings at Winton. In addition the Seniors event at Mt Gambier has them too. So there's a possible three events there, and that's enough. I don't want to have to join Sandy Club to get a ride in the Interclub, but if that's what it takes.... Hartwell Club invite the Mt Gambier Club to ride in their club championships, becuase 'they use their circuit'. We're looking for the same accomodation.
Interesting to note Winton Motorcycle Club has had no replies to its letters, so obviously the two parties mentioned have enough guys wanting to ride!
The BL**DY GAME IS EXPENSIVE ENOUGH WITHOUT SUBSIDISING SUPERBIKE RIDERS!! That's what we're doing when we pay $350 for a licence and ride three times a year.
Simple answer to all of this is to ride at the club ride days, and when AAA gets established, buy one of their licences!! (AAA already provides insurance for motorcycle ride days at Winton). |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 12:07:51 PM
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| Alan I am not an apologist for MA / Mv but where is the proof of this allegation "The BL**DY GAME IS EXPENSIVE ENOUGH WITHOUT SUBSIDISING SUPERBIKE RIDERS!!" |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 7:14:05 PM
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The MA licence fee is based on the premise that the purchaser will ride ten or more meetings per year. Let's have a poll!
How many motocross riders ride ten or more times per year? How many superbike riders ride ten or more times per year? How many historic road race riders, ride ten or more times per year? Who's paying for whose sport?
Incidently a AAA car racing licence costs $250, (compare this with an MA licence at $350)! The equivalent CAMS licence is about $500.
Sorry John - YOU ARE AN APOLOGIST FOR MA!
One thing you will note - I don't say one half as much about MA as I've heard some of the other older riders say!
MA/MV have never responded well to criticism, and I think they just might get a bit more in future. In fact when this web site first started up, I remember the Greenings getting a bit of a warning off on at least one occasion! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 7:17:37 PM
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As I understand it, we can forget about single event MA licences in future. It's just not going to happen past next year. So unless Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd start running more motorcycle events under AAA, you might as well cough up the $350, if you ever want to race!
AAA is looking better all the time! |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 8:31:08 PM
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I feel there should be choices of the MA licence at say $350 per year or single event licences at say $50 a race and not just a cough up the one (1) fee.
This would be the more democratic way of doing it, plus MA will/should in crease their coffers from the users that would normally be turned away by paying the full $350 for only racing a couple of times a year.
There should also be a set on the amount of races you can have on the single event licence, say 4 races max, and any more you need to pay the $350.
Even MA would have to agree, that this type of fee structure would suit about 98% of the riders and also be profitable for them.
As for MA having a go at us in the years we have been running, who gives a flying (you fill in the next word) _ _ _ _ ? Cause I do not. This web site is not MA (or any other organisation) affiliated or controlled and never will be. Above all, MA should look at the fee structure I just quickly through together and make Classic/Post Classic & Historic Motorcycle racing fairer for all, or is it MA's objective to kill off the sport?
Since MA does not get on here as an official organisation, then they are more than welcome to e-mail me your official word on the subject. (David White, you have my e-mail address) 
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 9:19:08 PM
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| David, I can also be reached by email from this site! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2003 : 09:11:16 AM
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Alan , I take exception to this comment "Sorry John - YOU ARE AN APOLOGIST FOR MA!"
If you or your clubs delegates attended the meetings you too would have the facts and not the rumours and they could contribute to the process. But since most clubs dont get representatives to meetings, their viewpoints are not noted.Our delegate reports that approx 11 of a possible 100 turn up. Its important riders have opinion, but they are not going to the right meetings to get thier views noted. So just note that I have always pushed for riders to attend meetings, if that makes me an apologist for MA I believe you are wrong.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2003 : 11:33:42 AM
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John, about three years ago I attended a 'meeting' of the Post Classic Association in Melbourne. Only two other people turned up.
There is an MA newsletter which gets sent to me by email. It contains a lot of info about international GP and Superbike racing. Obviously that's where the interest of MA/MV lies.
I don't feel like driving from Benalla to Melbourne to attend an MV meeting, and in any case there isn't even a notice of meeting or an agenda sent to the Winton Motorcycle Club.
Whats wrong with MA/MV haven't they heard of communication? I really believe they don't want democratic input from the members of any club! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2003 : 11:35:15 AM
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| Australian Autosport Alliance (AAA) is looking better all the time! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2003 : 2:26:12 PM
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| Hang on Al, one minute you want representation and now you want it to come to the lounge room. You are a hard man to please Alan. Any way tell us about AA you seem realy keen about. Would existing MA license holders become BLACK and not be able to ride elsewhere. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2003 : 3:30:22 PM
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John, the B*llsh*t about 'black' is illegal under the trade practices act, both in Australia and Internationally.
MA or CAMS cannot force people not to run at meetings facilitated by other insurers. In fact one of the main characters in CAMS kept his knowledge about the International law on this aspect secret for two years.
If MA/MV really wanted to help motorcycle racing in Australia, they would issue licences for the clerical costs, and recoup the rest (insurance) from promoters (entry fees). The system would then be USER PAYS!!
The whole thing is just so bl**dy non-genuine, it makes me feel sick. The fact is that DH is just that - a DH, WHO REALLY RIDES TEN MEETINGS A YEAR AMONGST HISTORIC RACERS? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2003 : 6:37:55 PM
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| Al, can you tell us about AAA. Who is the insurance company that backs it and how would it work for racers today? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2003 : 7:41:32 PM
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AAA is an organisation intended as an alternative to CAMS (and possibly MA). Back in August last year Mick Ronke approached CAMS and asked them to 'go along with him', they rejected the offer. AAA representives then went to Lloyds of London and approached the same syndicates who underwrite CAMS. They came away with a better deal than CAMS ever achieved, mainly it is believed due to AAA's better approach to risk management. CAMS then went to AAA's Australian insurance rep for Lloyds and demanded the same benefits, I don't know that they got a better deal this way.
AAA is led by Phillip Smiles who has an office in the Australian Automobile Association in Sydney, I believe Mick Ronke is the President, and Bob Jane is also involved as are a couple of promoters from Queensland Raceway, and Eastern Creek.
The rules AAA run under are essentially the same as CAMS however they don't support a structure of 48 people all going on jaunts.
At present there are moves afoot to standardise the 'rules' through Standards Australia. This will mean that Wakefield Park, Queensland Raceway, and CAMS licences will be rationalised, so that the equivalents
are known.
AAA was forced into the situation of facilitating the October 4th and 5th Historic meeting at Winton (run by Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd). The world didn't come to an end!!
CAMS takes $8million per year out of motor racing, AAA does it a lot cheaper.
The situation can be likened to an ACTU union (CAMS) and and VECCI (employers union)(AAA), not a really accurate analogy, but AAA was set up by promoters.
At present AAA doesn't have insurance to run motorcycle meetings (except club ride days), however that can be changed!!!! All it would take is one promoter to ask for it! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2003 : 1:35:43 PM
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| I heard today that the POms have motorcycle race licences for minimal cost, and high entry fees. Trouble is the fees have become exorbitant, so they are going for a more balanced approach. I believe it doesn't matter what system is used, if insurance claims are high, the fees will be high. The thing is to do something positive about minimising the risks to riders, and cut down on claims. If we want to promote the sport, I suggest minimal licence fees and higher entry fees are the way to go. It's really 'user pays'! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2003 : 3:47:48 PM
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| I RECKON ALL THE SOLO RIDERS SHOULD BE BANNED. THEY ARE THE ONES CAUSING MOST OF THE ACCIDENTS. Then we can get down to some good stuff without interuption! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 07:19:03 AM
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| Maybe you are right Scott. One thing I have just been made aware of, but it has been on the books for a while, is that interstate riders must pay an insurance levy in Victoria of $15 not $5 as Vics do. This is to draw more insurance money from the states with lower licence fees. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 07:36:06 AM
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This sounds like Victoria doesn’t want interstate competitors.quote:
Originally posted by john
One thing I have just been made aware of, but it has been on the books for a while, is that interstate riders must pay an insurance levy in Victoria of $15 not $5 as Vics do. This is to draw more insurance money from the states with lower licence fees.
Surely it would be better to have a uniform system and have all states paying the same and not "here, you have lower fees to race with, but when you come to race, we are going to slug you extra". This is fringing on the border of discrimination for riders in each state.
MA needs to consider getting their pricing structure right or risk killing the sport. They need to include single event licensing to keep the interest going. You surely can see that John.
You will be out of your sidecars as well if it keeps going the way it is as no one will pay the "EXTRA'S" and there will only be a handful of riders left, which will need to pay more as there will not be enough to make the fees stay down, and I am sure these will not last long.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 5:44:33 PM
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| Some time ago there was a paper published which explained the licence costs. Part of the cost is National office and another part is State office administration and then the State based Insurance contribution is added to licences foe each State. The argument is that since each state has different operating costs, so the fee which is added to the licence fee is different. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 12 Dec 2003 5:46:29 PM |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 8:12:41 PM
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How much do MA/MV take from motorcycling each year? What are the running costs of the organisation, and how many permanent employees or contractors do they have working for them? How much does Broadford generate or lose in revenue each year? Where can we get a copy of the annual report of MA/MV, is it available from the web site?
A bit of transparency would be appreciated. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 02:02:30 AM
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| Scott, I shouldn't have to go to an MA meeting to get a copy of a financial report from our union! I would have expected it to be sent automatically to event promoters such as Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd and the affiliated clubs anyway! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 09:52:25 AM
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| Everybody. Before you all lose sleep. The financials are sent to affiliated club and presented at the AGM which was help in about September. I have a copy here. As I have said many times before, all it takes is attendance at meetings by delegates. If you choose to live in the bush, bad luck you need to travel. I live in Bendigo and Melb., run a business in Melbourne,and I make it to MV meetings ie Historic Management, Road Race and the AGM. Our delegate goes to the delegates meetings. Democracy is not easy but who said it was. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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keith campbell
Level 3 Member
Victoria
248 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2003 : 6:53:06 PM
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Alan I too have sent a letter today regarding the inclusion of 1 event licences to Josh King at M.V. with the view that more entries are acheivable with a change in the rules.I do not know the politics but have expressed my opinion that this matter should be addressed in "classic" situations purely for economic reasons which I understand to be the main "BLOCK" for riders to not compete.
For change to happen numbers are needed to come forth.
If you know who else has a $$$$$ gripe get em to make their voice heard.
Get enough voices heard and we may well see full grids at all of the selected meetings people will ride at but are protesting the $350 fees at the moment(maybe we'll have to pay more next year)
Cheers Keith |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2003 : 7:30:14 PM
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Keith, my wife made a comment the other day, which is pertinent to our sport. She said, nothing turns off the young kids from anything, more than a lot of old farts arguing about 'the rules'. I agree with her, however Noel Mercer also made a comment that he 'didn't know where the next generation of historic racers is coming from'. The guys coming up don't seem to have the knowledge to build a motor for an historic bike.
The licence issue is important. The young guys need cheap ways of racing (and so do some of us oldies). Also there is another issue, the one about a cheap competitive class. I know what you race isn't cheap, but an Indian Enfield rolling chassis with a two or four valve Jawa in it, would be better than any Gold Star BSA ever was. What more do you need to get into P3 (the premier class), or a single cylinder four stroke class?
I suggest we need to develop some class which is extremely competitive and really attractive. What you race is ideal (the Matchlesses), however the old engines are too fragile without extreme mods.
I don't want to turm historic racing on it's head, but we've got to do something to attract the kids. Noncomplianced Enfields are apparently very cheap from Asia. Let's get them and throw away the motors and gearboxes, and make then really go as 'clubmans racers'! There must be literally hundreds of old Jawa engines about! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2003 : 07:44:36 AM
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| Does anyone know if single event licences will continue to be available for the Interclub events during 2004? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2003 : 10:15:10 AM
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| Maybe your wife has it right. I suggest a truce on rules and lets just work our how to get more riders to the track. Please dont start with, "If the rules were OK we would not have a problem" |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2003 : 5:59:42 PM
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John, I don't really believe 'the rules' are a big problem. The eligibility aspects are probably OK, however I believe it's the type of events that are run at many meetings which deter a lot of guys. HMRAV seem to be working towards getting it right! I've mentioned the 'two stroke races' at Broadford last meeting. I saw P4 and P5 two strokes racing together without four strokes, and that was very good. The races looked like what happened in the early 70s. If we can get Formula 750 going with a trophy for the pushy 750s, we might get a decent competition going. I'm going to wait and see what happens in that area before I bring out a 750 four stroke. In the meantime I'll be getting the TZ350G going properly, and I'll try to run it at a few meetings - probably the oldies at Mac Park, and the Interclub. If it goes OK I'll probably pay a full licence and bring it out at Winton in October. Depends a bit on whether I make any money this year!
I really believe 'cross-period' racing based on type and capacity are the way to go. The alcohol fuel is a good leveller. It brings bikes like Bruce Kinnersleys Montesa up competitive with later bikes on petrol. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2003 : 6:15:54 PM
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| John, As I wrote previously I was too lousy to buy a programme at Broadford, and now I'm paying the price. What was the format for the two stroke races which had a few TZs and an R5 and an RD350LC, and afew others? Was it Period 5, or was it Period 4 and 5 combined? How is HMRAV going to run this class in future, will we have to contend with Stuart Loly on the GS1100, or is it a small capacity class? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2004 : 9:59:58 PM
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| I am too tired to do anything at the moment.Also you are asking complex questions. As far as I know there were some engine storage frames running around, thats all. Get a copy of next Vic Titles program, I can sell you a copy of the last one. I have sugested we try P5 up to 600 and over 600cc does that anmswer your question? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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