| Author |
 Topic  |
|
| |
Current Topic Rating:  | Join the Forum to Rate this Topic at: Classic Motorcycling Australia Forums
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jan 2003 : 7:46:19 PM
|
|
Just fishing at the moment. Do people see merit in encouraging the youger riders to enter Historic racing with the Indian Royal Enfields? Would it be practical to encorage them onto the circuit. According to an article in Classic Bike they can be made reliable and suitable for racing fairly easily.
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2003 : 9:27:30 PM
|
It could be useful to start a class for pushrod 500 singles of British (or Indian) manufacture which are largely unmodified. Enfield, Matchless, AJS and BSA singles, excluding the sports models would compete fairly equally. Gets back to what we were discussing about a Clubmans class. Indian Enfields would provide a good entry level into the sport for the young guys, you can buy a new one for about $5000, I just don't know how you can promote the concept to get sufficient entries early on.
Enfield frames have been used for fast Triumphs, in the past, so the guys would have something which actually handled, don't know about the stopping dept. though.
There is a major advantage in using Indian Enfields this way - there is potential for after market manufacture to support the racers. This can help us all. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
 |
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2003 : 9:24:27 PM
|
www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com
HITCHCOCK'S MOTORCYCLES
OLDWICH LANE WEST
CHADWICK END
SOLIHULL
B93 0DL ENGLAND
Supply a range of fitments to Royal Enfields
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
|
|
Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2003 : 09:05:41 AM
|
 Looked up www site for RE to race one 500cc crank 295 barrell 295 oil pump 2x 29.5 hi comp piston 60 cyclinder head 495 cam 158 valve springs 15 valve kit 65 rocker set 40 clutch springs 3.5 and close ratio gear box 156 this is pommy POUNDS so x by 3 we have $5655.00 aussie bucks.  Sure this is the way to go racing and you still have a heap of s**t. Good work sell the house, the misses (not a bad idea ) and get rid of the kids (best idea), and go playing HAM radio! Geez I love racing RE's... 
|
Allan Greening |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2003 : 5:11:41 PM
|
Allan,
I can't believe it would cost over $5000 to simply make an Indian Enfield reliable enough to race. Can you explain how any young bloke can get into historic racing and be competitive, for reasonable cost?
A class of homologated classic bikes would be a good thing, in my opinion. If the rules are written tightly enough (and they can be - look at gokarts), it should be possible to start up an entry level class of racing. If you couldn't sufficiently upgrade an Indian Enfield by changing the cams, oil pump, and jetting for alcohol, I'd be very surprised. There should be no need to change bearings, flywheel assembly, cases, head, barrel, or possibly even pistons.
I don't think we should knock the idea of racing Indian Enfields, before we have had a good discussion on this forum. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2003 : 5:20:29 PM
|
The other day I had a look at the article on Indian Enfields in Classic Bike. The poms have made enough bits to upgrade the bike to the old Enfield GT configuration. This means alloy tank, rear sets, swept back pipes, clubmans bars, racing seat, and alloy barrel and belt drive.
If we think about WHAT COULD BE - imagine a field of forty of these beauties. I suggest the thing to do would be to write a set of rules allowing changes up to 'Clubmans' spec., and start racing them.
Then persuade the Indian factory that it would be worthwhile homologating the changes into a standard model. Then we'd have a bike anyone could buy and race, in historic events. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 09:01:40 AM
|
| AG as a sidecar gentleman, I notice that the solo blokes have trouble actually obtaining bikes to race. The proof of this is the small grid sizes. The Indiam RE's actually meet the classic criteria, they appear to be better constructed than you are suggesting and if $5000 seems close to the price that is within budget from what I here. I know from experience if you are in a field of similair machines, even postie CT110's, it is fun. So if the RE's are not as competitive as hotted Triumphs, Nortons, AJ's etc does it matter if there are others to compete against? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 5:51:50 PM
|
I suggest it might be worthwhile promoting a 500cc single cylinder bears class. The most direct and cheapest way to competitive solo historic racing is to use an old speedway motor in a featherbed frame. At present there are plenty of four valve Jawa, Weslake, GM, Godden motors available for around $1200, and you can buy a lowboy featherbed with the trick steering geometry for around $1500.
A gearbox with close four speeds costs around $1200. If you can't do the rest for about $1500, there's something wrong. (total $5400)
With this funding you should be able to build a really competitive bike. In my opinion this would be a better way to go racing than try to do anything with an Enfield than race it unmodified.
I understand that one of our best racers, who has raced a much modified Matchless, has just seen the light and bought a two valve Jawa (eligible for P3).
The best way to spend a lot of money in historic racing is to start with a road motor and modify it.
A 500cc single cylinder Bears class would include Indian Enfields, but you'd also get all the fifties and sixties British Singles. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2003 : 4:59:58 PM
|
| A suggestion has been passed to me that the Indian Enfileds would not be eligible as classic machines. This comment was based on the fact that the Indian Enfields, when stood adjacent to an english one are in fact quite different. So what is the truth of the situation. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2003 : 5:14:42 PM
|
| I have been advised that these motors wouls all fit within the forgotten era period, any thgoughts.(At present there are plenty of four valve Jawa, Weslake, GM, Godden motors available for around $1200) |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2003 : 03:20:40 AM
|
How about a class for 500cc four stroke twins and singles up to 1980? We could specify that the frames must be tubular steel. Allow single disc or drum front brake, disc or drum rear. Allow any gearbox. Bikes should have clipons and at least handlebar fairings, as well as rear sets, and racing seats.
This would mean you could build your cafe racer Rickman or Seeley or featherbed framed with Jawa, GM, Godden or Weslake. (NO TWO STROKES)
The class would encompass all the old P3 bikes, and introduce a bit more interesting competition.
My money would still be on the Ray Berry/Craig Morris Manx.
It would be interesting to see what happens when the Inca crew come up against the guys who regularly competed in this class.
An old mate of mine, who you might remember (Bob Beanham of Modak Motorcycles), once said to me that noone needs a motorcycle of over 500cc capacity. At the time I was hotting up 650cc Triumphs, so I thought 'who would listen to this silly old fool'. Now I think he really knew what he was talking about.
Those old speedway engines turn out a reliable 50 horsepower, and when you build them into a 130 kilogram bike, you have something which really goes.
The beauty of the idea is that it is as cheap as you can build a historic machine, and have something fairly genuine. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2003 : 03:42:06 AM
|
| Incidently, a few years ago the speedway rules were changed to reduce the inlet port size in two valve Jawas to 38mm (I think). The reason was to slow the motors down a bit, so there is the possibilty of getting them to go a bit harder. I think a four valve Jawa in a Mk3 Seeley frame, with this mod would be a gem motorcycle, if you built it light enough. With a five speed Triumph box, and the Phil Pick close ratio mod, you'd have something that could blow most of the older bikes away. It'd still take a good rider to beat Craig Morris or Barry Sheene. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2003 : 09:16:02 AM
|
| I have just recieved the catalouge from England detailing all the goodies made for the Indian Enfields, but also I ask the question, can we have them appear as classic or post classic bikes? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2003 : 5:15:32 PM
|
| I believe Ray Bann used to work for Ron Angel, doing pre-delivery on the rotten Enfields back in the 60s. In those days several of them had holes in the crankcase castings, and the oild ran straight through the engine onto the ground. If you want to give yourself a hard time, just play racing with any street engine, and I think the Indian Enfield path might be a bit difficult. Personally I'd mych rather use a four valve Jawa with return pump. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2003 : 11:35:56 PM
|
| I am pretty confident that things have changed since the 1960's. The poms seem to have built some nice stuff from the Indian Enfileds around now. lets look at the current situation please because we can spend a lot of time talking about how back the past was. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 11:53:57 AM
|
Have I got news for you. Despite my promise not to promote new sols stuff, I have had some reports back about the Enfields. The authority is Kevin Hodges from Gympe in Qld. 07 5483 6844. He is a past importer and enfield nut who is used as an authority in QLd and NSW and eleigibility. THE FACTS
Every single part from an english enfiled is interchangable to Indian ones, for the entire classic period. The new frame has additional lugs and the front brake drums are now 7" and they should be 6" to be 100% kosher. It would cost about $6500 to buy a new one and $3000 or less for a second hand one. The only item that needs to be changed is the aluminium rod to a steel AJS one that can be fitted. There is a 5 speed version on its way so I shall leave it for others to follow up. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 2:02:34 PM
|
| I suggest we'd be getting a bit picky if we tried to knock out someone for having a 7 inch brake. and fitting the conrod would be a wise move anyway. We must be able to use these old heaps, they actually have a half decent frame. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 2:04:15 PM
|
| Actually, we could do worse than banning five speed boxes. It's a major expense in building anything competitive these days. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 2:10:48 PM
|
Quote "I suggest we'd be getting a bit picky if we tried to knock out someone for having a 7 inch brake."
Alan with respect its about time we all were picky and busted the cheats. If the current machines comply entirely within the existing rules with the 7 inch brake leave them on But if they dont theny ned to be taken off. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 2:11:28 PM
|
| Actually, apart from $80,000 Andy Molnar Manxes and George Beale Seeley G50s, Indian Enfield must be about the only true fifties bikes still being made, and which offer a way into historic P3 without buying something which is probably depleted, or is a bitsa. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 2:31:46 PM
|
| The real issue is how do you get it going, I did suggest to the importer he may offer a trophy, otherwise I shall leave it to others to follow up. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 9:02:14 PM
|
Reply was unrelated and moved to a new topic here: You must be logged in to see this link.
Pleas stick to the current topic, others will be simply deleted.
Cheers,
David |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 08:00:54 AM
|
| Alan can you stick to the point about Royal Enfields nothing else. I am getting feedback that people are sick of the topics being changed in the middle and dealing with matters not related. I suggest you do as I do, start another topic. Then people know what is being discussed. Can you shift the last entry to a new or related topic please, other wise I shall ask the moderater to come dowm heavy on all of us if I can. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 5:40:42 PM
|
My final comment:
If I was starting out in historic racing today I wouldn't buy an Indian Enfield in the hope that a suitable class might eventuate.
The only way these bikes will ever get to run is if there is some form of handicapping which will get them a decent ride in one of the established classes.
I just can't see any promoter running a special race for them when, for a couple of years at least, only a few turn up!
SO I WAS ACTUALLY KEEPING TO THE SUBJECT!! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 5:50:34 PM
|
| The Importer is thinking about helping at the Southern Cl;assic so you may all look at them there. I have asked can he help us with some marshalls bikes, rather than us getting some Triumphs. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 09:58:06 AM
|
| You can all make up your minds at the Southern Classic the importer is considering a request to provide two Marshalls vehicles so they may be available to inspect. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 2:01:35 PM
|
| Well John if u r fair dinkem about a RE class of racing WHY not ask the importer if he will supply bikes in unopened crates for racing ! He may even be interested in keeping things like seat/lights etc which would not be use on a racing RE! and he could do a special price for the race bike types would make the class cheep way of racing . Also at the same time convince him to give us @ You must be logged in to see this link. a RE for us to promote for this class say after 3 years he can have the bike back in full race trim Lolo.Just think how rider's would flock to buy a class of racing at a reduced price |
Allan Greening |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 4:37:59 PM
|
| Well Allan I reckon I have shown to be fair dinkum,and dont need to prove my credentials but the solo riders have not been falling over themselves to help the creation of new classes or find bikes for themselves. I am aiming my proposals at the next generation of riders interested in the RE style of machine. I have asked the importer to think about becoming involved and he has taken a advert on this site for a start. Secondly, I have asked him to consider loaning us some marshalling bikes as discussed for the s/classic to show them off. Thirdly, I would never ask anybody in business to provide a bike free of charge for somebody else other than myself to use, I am in business and in my experience something for nothing is always trashed or abused. Graham the importer has had experience in QLD with modern racing teams so he has knowledge of the situation. Forthly, I have asked if he can supply bikes without seats etc, but he has explained that the cost saving is minimal, unless they come from the factory. He has mentioned he shall see if they can be supplied from the factory to specs defined by us. Fifley, second hand machines are avialable for $3000 and the solo riders themselves now need to look at the class. A suggestion came through to run them with Clubmans to eliminate the Manx hotties and encourage some other machines on the track at the same time. So now it is up to the solo riders themselves to extract the digit and do something for themselves instead of insisting a sidecar rider should find bikes for them, the home work has been done. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2003 : 4:42:33 PM
|
| John, while you are talking to the importer you might ask which models might be best suited for racing. I've seen ads for Enfields with single seat, drop bars and alloy tank. I don't know whether they were bikes that were modified in UK or not, but they look very good. Perhaps the Injuns could be induced to produce a cafe racer style production machine? They'd probably like a few Australian dollars. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
