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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Aug 2003 : 06:44:14 AM
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Why should this site help the riders of Classic/Post Classic and Historic motorcycle racing if the controlling bodies in Australia are not willing to help them?
If the forum members could please give us your views, and don't hold anything back. There is only one slight issue, and that is if you are an official, I would like you to hold off on your views until the average guy/gal has had their say.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2003 : 5:33:09 PM
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Looks like this site is not helping others, so I think there is no point or need to keep it going, do you?
I mean if 12 members I know of that have looked at, then there are users who are not logged in looking at this topic who can not be bothered to make a comment, then I may have no other choice but to either close the site down or sell the site to someone who can spend the time as I do maintaining it.
Open to offers or comments.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Former Member
deleted
39 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2003 : 9:43:31 PM
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MA have a very broad focus, and have to cover every aspect of motorcycle sport. Their main focus is understandingly driven by those discliplines that generate the most income for them. Lets all remember, MA is not a Stautory Body like the old ACCA was. It is now run as a business.
Classic racing, as much as we love it, does nothing to add to MA coffers, so they give it the appropriate amount of support.....ie none!
The competitor base has been dwindling away for many years, so MA use the licence fees as one of their major sources of income. MA are not looking at turnover, they are looking at profits, and profits only.
To MA, Classic racers are not a very viable bunch, so accordingly they ignore us in the hope that we will go away.
Unity is strengh. Perhape we need to take a leaf out of the pages of 2 other organisations that I used to have something to do with, namely The 125 Grand Prix Riders Association, and the Australian Sidecar Racers Association. Both of these types of racing classes were looking doom in the face, so they got up, organised themselves, got voted into positions on the board at State level, and then started, (successfully it seems),to change the system from the inside. These two classes are now no longer under threat and well on the way to recovery.
Perhaps that is what Classic Racing needs.
These are just my thoughts, based on my own experiences. you see I was the QLD State Rep for the Grand Prix Riders Assn in 1994-97, and the State Rep for the Australian Sidecar Racers Assn in 1998-1999. So I have seen what Unity can do. But all states would have to be involved, and all Classic Racers must make a bit of noise. Otherwise nothing will change, and things will only degenerate further.
John Swensen |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 6:40:27 PM
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John,
the old truism 'unity is strength' has often been converted to 'in unions there is strength'. That's exactly what MA and CAMS are - unions, representing riders and drivers to promoters.
One of the things which has parrticularlty irritated a well known car club, is CAMS calling itself the 'controlling body for motorsport in Australia'.
There is now a promoters group known as Australian Autosport Alliance which operates out of the RAC of NSW. This group has actually found insurance from Lloyds of London (the same source as CAMS gets theirs). The interesting thing is that CAMS was asked how they could still claim to represent all the circuits and promoters?
I believe the MA has it's own insurance which is from a company based in the Isle of Man. How likely do you think that major claims will be paid?
I suggest the best things guys can do if they want representation, is form special interest groups to push their own barrows with MA. In the car racing world there are literally dozens, all listed in the CAMS manual. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 8:48:38 PM
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| David I think I can understand the feeling of desolation when you dont get a result from a straightforward question. But for what its worth I hope the site continues, because the alternative is to have no forum at all and thats not much good either. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2003 : 1:49:25 PM
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I have a concise message for MA/MV and it's this:
GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER - WE NOW HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE INSURER!!
How about starting by gracing us with your presence on this forum? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2003 : 8:03:18 PM
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| David, I believe the promises made to you by MA were a lot of w*nk. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2003 : 8:07:44 PM
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Alan,
I know it and you know it, but none of the controlling bodies want to help this site out, as we seem to tell them where we believe they have gone wrong and they do not like it. Maybe it is tooooooooooo close to the truth!quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
I have a concise message for MA/MV and it's this:
GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER - WE NOW HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE INSURER!!
How about starting by gracing us with your presence on this forum?
The offer has been on this site for over 2 years now for the controlling bodies in each state and national, to get on board and let their members know what is going on, and what have we had, yes, empty promises. I am sure the controlling organisation that I am referring to knows who they are.
It was a pathetic attempt to silence this site for a while and since they are no longer returning my emails, I think it stinks and now we voice our opinions harder at them.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2003 : 06:21:47 AM
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David,
I'm extremely disappointed at the mindset a lot of motorcyclists display. I don't know whether it's jealousy, ignorance, animosity - what it is - however anyone who tries to do anything about the tired old idiots, who have been in control for at least the last forty years, meets with suspicion and contempt.
It doesn't matter whether you are AGC, DG,JD, ACG, AK, or anyone else with real concerns - they won't be addressed through the prescribed and formal channels, without overturning the current hierarchy at MA.
The lack of response from MA clearly states this!
As far as I am concerned they can stick it up their nose!
If there is any way I can 'shake the tree' of CAMS or MA/MV, I'm going to do it! So guys, let's all be SQUEAKY CLEAN from now on!
Best Regards, |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2003 : 6:34:38 PM
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Apparently CAMS have DEMANDED that their insurers Lloyds of London give them the same benefits that the Australian Autosport Alliance are receiving with their new policy.
AAA are also getting their insurance from Lloyds. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2003 : 12:48:24 PM
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A car racing licence costs about $450 from CAMS, from Australian Auto-sport Alliance it costs about $200.
A General Competition Licence costs $350 from MA/MV.
I wonder how much Australian Auto-sport Alliance charge? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2003 : 4:05:43 PM
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Alan,
If you want to start a new topic about insurance or licence fees, by all means go for it, but this topic was about the let down in the sport of Classic/Post Classic and Historic motorcycle racing from the controlling bodies in Australia and why this site should help the sport.
All others:
Since only a couple of people have made comment and no one from any of these controlling bodies has actually contributed to this site and these forums then this site will be taking a backward space in my priorties and I am not sure what to do with the site including the forums at this stage, but will keep you posted. It may be sold off to te highest bidder.
As for MA, it can go a take a flying leap in to a shit hole as far as I am concerned. David White promised me stuff and never delivered and by the looks of it, never intended to. Great work from a CEO, not.
Here is some of the message going between David White and my self:
quote:
Originally email to David White (CEO MA)
-----Original Message-----
From: Webmatser @ Classic Motorcycling Australia
Sent: Tuesday, 19 August 2003 4:55 PM
To: dwhite@ma.org.au
Subject: RE: Website and comments by MA
Importance: High
David,
I still have not got the meeting minutes as promised. I want to put them up and get things rolling if that I can.
Cheers,
David
-----Original Message-----
From: David White [mailto:dwhite@ma.org.au]
Sent: Friday, 15 August 2003 7:03 AM
To: Webmatser @ Classic Motorcycling Australia
Subject: RE: Website and comments by MA
David,
I apologise for the delay.
You will have them by Tuesday.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Webmatser @ Classic Motorcycling Australia
Sent: Thursday, 14 August 2003 6:33 PM
To: dwhite@ma.org.au
Cc: Allan Greening
Subject: RE: Website and comments by MA
Importance: High
David,
I was just wondering where the minutes are as we spoke about in the meeting last week? I would like to start to get things going on the site again with facts and not fiction.
Cheers,
David
I have yet to still get a reply from David White about my final email, but don't intend to hold my breath. Been fun while it lasted, but as MA are intent in killing the sport of Classic/Post Classic and Historic motorcycle racing then I may have no other choice but to close.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2003 : 9:04:53 PM
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David, My comment was very much about 'controlling bodies'. CAMS claims to be the controlling body for autosport in Australia. Some people have even suggested that the Australian Government has appointed them to this position. This is NOT TRUE. Neither is MA the 'controlling body' for motorcycling in Australia. Both MA and CAMS are UNIONS affiliated with international bodies. They have NO LEGISLATED AUTHORITY, and NO MONOPOLY.
Australian Auto-sport Alliance has been set up as an alternative to CAMS and will be offering insurance to motorcycle groups using it's circuits. In the future it may even offer licences and control motorcycle meetings at several circuits in Australia.
Please ring me. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2003 : 11:20:19 AM
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| Anybody wanting to promote a motorcycle meeting in the next twelve months, could do well to talk to Bob Jane. I believe at present he will give FREE access to Calder and Adelaide Raceway to anyone wanting to go with Australian Auto-sport Alliance for their insurance |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
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6 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 08:56:04 AM
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| Closing down this site, what a joke! Why let the anal retentives win and ruin what I believe to be the best forum to express you're feelings in. I have only been part of this forum for a very short time and I find it to be more helpful than MA! I think that all the people that are responsible for this website are doing their best. It was agreed there just weren't enough hours in the day regarding upkeep to a webpage. If the upkeep is too much then I would understand but stuff the officials and the bodies who wont get involved. I think that the reason the bodies won't get involved is because what you're posting hits home. They don't want to get involved with posts/topics they can't answer. Having no forum is pointless, then how can the little people voice their opinions? Sure you can ring any of the listed bodies and have your say but most likely what you'll get is a ' Can I take your name and number and get back to you?' ie: If it'll shut u up i'll take your name and number and let u hang by the balls/flaps until I decide to get back to you, which is not going to happen. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 09:09:07 AM
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L,
Great stuff.. This is the sort of stuff I need to keep it going.quote:
Originally posted by L
Closing down this site, what a joke! Why let the anal retentives win and ruin what I believe to be the best forum to express you're feelings in. I have only been part of this forum for a very short time and I find it to be more helpful than MA! I think that all the people that are responsible for this website are doing their best. It was agreed there just weren't enough hours in the day regarding upkeep to a webpage. If the upkeep is too much then I would understand but stuff the officials and the bodies who wont get involved. I think that the reason the bodies won't get involved is because what you're posting hits home. They don't want to get involved with posts/topics they can't answer. Having no forum is pointless, then how can the little people voice their opinions? Sure you can ring any of the listed bodies and have your say but most likely what you'll get is a ' Can I take your name and number and get back to you?' ie: If it'll shut u up i'll take your name and number and let u hang by the balls/flaps until I decide to get back to you, which is not going to happen.
I am glad I am not the only one (besides Alan) that thinks like it, but I still need more feed back to help me decide which way to go witht he site.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Former Member
deleted
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6 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 09:20:17 AM
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| David, I just hope we have what it takes to sway you to keeping our forum going. Goodluck with your decision bub. |
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Former Member
deleted
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6 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 10:50:37 AM
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David,
You can't shut down this website! I just fulfilled something that has taken me two gruelling years thanks to this forum and its members. If it weren't for this website i would still be basically ass up! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 3:12:28 PM
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David,
In this day and age, communication is of paramount importance. I know I might seem to have some funny ideas about historic mororcycling, however I believe it COULD BE SO GOOD in the future, if we work steadily towards it, and through discussion, set a few goals.
Your web site is an excellent service, and more of the guys seem to be looking, and a few even contributing. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2003 : 03:45:27 AM
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David, and everyone. If you've got a bit of time have a look at this web site:
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to 'forum', then 'track officials', and have a look at the Calder Park thread. It goes for 32 pages.
Shows what happens when the 'controlling body' is about to fall on its backside.
Best Regards, |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2003 : 7:40:19 PM
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I believe Standards Australia has approached CAMS and MA and most of the circuit owners in Australia, to see whether there is interest in developing standards for track and vehicle safety in the Motor Racing Industry. Also included would be competency requirements for drivers/riders, officials and emergency response crews.
This would mean that when riders have a complaint about circuit safety, the answer wouldn't lie in someone's opinion, but in the interpretation of the Australian Standard. It would also mean that in the event of a fatality the definitions would lie in the public consensus document (not in the CAMS/MA handbooks).
I would hope that MA will participate in this activity, and make motor racing safer for us all. We might even see a reduction in insurance premiums. I believe the insurers have been invited along too. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2003 : 9:07:17 PM
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| Personally I believe as soon as Standards Australia is involved all the tracks would be deemed unsafe. As a Civil Engineer I am aware of Industry Standards, and I do not believe Standards Australia would be capable of determining a single standard that was not so restrictive to cover their backsides that we would not be able to use it. Remember these burkes suggested seat belts for motorcycles, curved speed humps on roads, Armco Railing with steel bits protruding from the top edge and wire cable separation fences for freeways etc, want any more brilliant ideas? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2003 : 07:47:27 AM
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John,
Any standards developed by Standards Australia would be based on 'consensus'. In short they would only be what the industry wants them to be. Standards Australia only provide project management for committees and control the standardisation exercise, publish the standard when complete. The content depends on the committee!! (Let's find a chairperson with our interests at heart. David White would be good.)
Another thing - in your post you used the word 'unsafe'.
I suggest we should always use the following definition for 'safe':
'a situation or condition where the risks are minimised to a level tolerable to all stakeholders'.
This means that if your family, the promoter, and yourself agree that the risks are 'minimal' and 'tolerable', you are SAFE. Every time you fly in a jumbo jet, you take a risk. It is about ten million to one that you will die. The fatal accident rates are known for many industries, these provide guidelines. If you want to stop motor racing, then horse racing will go first. Jockeys have the highest FARs. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2003 : 07:52:29 AM
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| Sorry that jumbo jet thing should read 'one in ten million'. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2003 : 08:31:57 AM
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John, Had a thought about the armco, and the cabling you mentioned. There is provision for industry groups to publish their own standards as Australian Standards. I believe what you described might have been developed by Austroads, which is a committee comprising the State Govt Road Authorities - (Vicroads etc.)
What we don't have in motorcycling is the spec. for the airbags. (the Australian ones have slow air release and provision for recovery, some of the overseas ones lie on the ground when punctured). We don't have any documentation which shows how to calculate 'run-off' distances. (I believe that mate of yours has his own version of the FIA guidelines, applicable to motorcyclists).
I believe a good set of Australian Standards can only help the motor racing industry. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2003 : 08:45:55 AM
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Alan,
In my current role, I produce installation documentation for the eCommerce Systems at one of the 4 large banks and what I say in the documents sets the standard across the the bank. Would this not be the same for Standards Australia, someone writes on what they do and that is the new Standard?
From what I have seen in the past and are seeing now, there is no 'consensus' from anywhere. It is, "I have written this and you will follow it", that is how it works here, so what is to say it is not the same at Standards Australia! Keeping in mind there is over 25,000 people working here and my documents are to be followed or it doesn't happen. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2003 : 08:58:55 AM
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David, I suggest you are correct. However much of our current practise is documented in the FIA, CAMS and MA manuals. Probably all we need to do is subject them to scrutiny, and the 'consensus' process, and transfer them into the standards. The standards should reflect 'best practice'. There are some areas (particularly in the CAMS manual) which could do with a close look, by people with a technical background (e.g. welding of roll cages, and crack detecting mag wheels).
The point of the exercise would be to put all the technical areas into public documents, so that if ever it comes to a court case, we can say 'we did it to the standard'. That's what a reasonable person would do, and we should be covered legally. This approach should reduce our insurance premiums. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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