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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Sep 2003 : 7:34:09 PM
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Heard an interesting comment the other day. I've noticed several times where the guys speed up to accomodate safety improvements, but this takes the cake. Apparently before the air bags were placed along the wall at Winton, none of the guys ever hit the wall. Since the air bags have been there someone seems to hit them in nearly every race, and the lap times have fallen.
What does this mean?
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2003 : 7:39:51 PM
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| That riders are more aware of the airbags and decied to go slow, but as they have made the turn narrower, they hit the airbags as they were trying not to, but lost it.. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2003 : 11:27:07 PM
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i think it's just good old "target fixation",by wall i guess you mean coming onto main straight?,the line is nowhere near the wall!,(well mine aint?),can't say for moderner pilots lines,but i have plenty of piccies to back that up!,my 10c worth,mick. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2003 : 07:33:34 AM
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| I do not believe we need to modify tracks to permit high speeds. Riders must rider according to the condidtiond and track owners need to avaoid negligence. But if riders suddenly increase cornering speeds, I feel they are responsible for that action, not the track owners. If it rains people modify their actions, if they rider a big bore bike they must ride to suit the circiut. Otherwise we will not have circuits left soon. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2003 : 12:25:11 AM
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As I understand it most of the circuits in the world have been taking action to bring the speeds down. Everyone is getting faster, and it's becoming a big problem. The chicane at Bathurst was probably a really good move. I can't understand how anyone gets anywhere near the airbags at Winton. You have to fall off when you're three quarters of the way through the esses. I reckon you've done all the hard part by then.
The one at the start of the big straight on the new circuit is a bit of a different story, but noone seems to hit the bags there. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2003 : 09:54:21 AM
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| Scott what sort of walls are you talking about I am talking about stuff far enough away so you cant hit a the speeds of say a 600 machine 5years ago. Today we are adding 20kmp will faster and faster top speed machines aand I reckopn if you want to ride one then you think about track side furniture 120 metres away. Other wise where will it end spectators will be 1 km from the track side, walls 900 metres. WE must ride to suit conditions. I am not avocating walls such as we used to have a Bathurst, 1.2m Armco 3 feet off the white line directly in front of the Conrod end. But I belive the wall at turn 2 [ short track] winton should stay and some blokes just need to slow down around that section. Otherwise I would just get rid of machines that hit that wall by banning them. The wall has been ok for many years, all of a sudden it not.Bad luck is my belief. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2003 : 8:29:53 PM
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Mick, I think your 'target fixation' theory has got something to it. Years ago Allan Greening told me that the drivers who looked at the trees on the sides of winding country roads, were likely to run off and hit one. He said you should look at the gaps between the trees. Might be something to this psychology b*llsh*t.
I thought this airbag business sounded a bit strange when I first heard it. I've noticed a couple of guys hitting them, and I'd only ever seen a couple of guys ever come anywhere near the wall before this. It's a bit unbelievable. |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2003 : 12:01:47 AM
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| Alan,i have a new theory!,if the fences are painted white?,the riders who hit them must be disoriented,previously using the wall as a focusing point,it's now closer to them in the turn,it's only a matter of ajustment?,Mick |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2003 : 09:14:20 AM
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| I think those guys have just stuffed the theory on 'behavoural safety'. I'm qualified as an occupational hygienist, and the theory is that you do a risk assessment and implement controls, and everything should be great. I think all the guys perceive the risk to be reduced and just go harder. The ones who have always been 'off line' find themselves in trouble and panic and sit up or try to change where they are on the track. To hit that wall you have to fall off well back in the corner. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2003 : 07:35:28 AM
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I believe those air bags should be the same colour as the walls, so they aren't so noticable. I think what is happening, is the fast guys feel safer because they see the air bags, and go faster. The slower guys try to keep up and fall off at the changeover point between the corners.
I understand some of the sand traps at Winton also have magnets in them. Some of the car guys end up in the new ones, which have been placed where most people don't run off. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2003 : 1:29:03 PM
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| Instead of air bags I reckon we should have barbed sticks because we dont want them to bounce back in to the path of others. But seriously the issue of why are bags now being required is not being addressed at all. I know I harp on about it, but again I raise the point, perhpas we need to reduce capacities so we dont finish up without any suitable circuits. In time i believe this will be forced on us anyway, and perhpas we need to think seriuosly about what sort of speeds we need to have. Currently the discussion about limiting top speeds is avioded, perhaps we need to think about it. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2003 : 5:42:35 PM
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I don't know that a capacity limit is the answer. I saw an A grader on a 125 GP bike run rings around all the 600s a few months back.
You know my wishes, I'd like to see a lot of the guys on 500cc four stroke singles. You could make a good competitive class with bikes ranging from manxes to SR500s |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2003 : 9:48:46 PM
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| hey guys,i wonder what they would have done about the "dead stopper" at Amaroo,we all went pretty well flat out at it,was my favourite corner,(last of the late brakers)never went near the wall once in all the time i raced there,made the gutter once,because gearbox kept selecting a neutral instead of 2nd,also went left there trying to outbrake Trevor from queensland on another matcho,when he shut me out,corner marshalls were impressed,(had a few words in the pits later about that)so i guess it's just plain bad luck when you do hit the walls,not bad design?,hmmm,Mick |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2003 : 3:20:09 PM
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| Well it gets back to my original concept, run smaller donks and the wall problem will go away again. Maybe the requirement of some to do 300kph will just have to be cutailed. How are we going to have tracks if we dont protect the public from accidents? Where are we going to build atrack that permits 400kph, has no hard ground, free beer and no girls to look at. The public of course could not attend because they would be 1.5km from the track edge. Who wants to race at that sort of track, I dont. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2003 : 7:28:18 PM
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Steve,
I completed a two year post graduate diploma at Deakin Uni, I then became a member of the Australian Institute of Occupational Hygienists, not that this means very much. The profession is concerned with workplace health and safety, and minimising risk to workers and the public. The main areas are: hazardous substances, radiation, noise, dust (asbestos), ergonomics (machine/man interface), psychological factors (behavioural safety and risk perception and stress), physical factors such as machinery guarding.
My business (Acotrel Risk Management P/L) is concerned with writing management manuals for companies to control operational risk (quality, safety, environment, security).
You may be familiar with ISO9000, the Quality Management System Standard which many Australian Companies are assessed to. The manuals are based on that standard and ISO 14000, and AS4801 and AS4444.
I'm primarily an industrial chemist,and I've worked as a quality manager and technical writer. So the hazardous substances and quality stuff is easy for me.
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2003 : 7:36:09 PM
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John, I think there might be a simple answer to this air bag thing. At the end of each straight, in line with the edge of the circuit for about twenty feet in the direction of travel, paint the fence ahead of the riders in the international hazard colours - diagonal black and amber stripes. Hang a similarly coloured banner across the airbags to hide them.
I think this thing is about the way risk perception affects behaviour. The riders who see the airbags feel more confident, and go harder.
If they get the perception, it is still dangerous, we might find the lap times falling a bit, and more of the guys staying on.
Someone might like to have a talk to Monash Uni, and see if one of their students would like to do a PhD on this subject.
We might all learn something. We should log the lap times of a sample of riders, before and after we make the changes.
Best Regards,
Al |
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