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Former Member
deleted
107 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Oct 2003 : 12:11:01 AM
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a few months ago the subject of Senna's death was mentioned, well recently i heard that it wasn't caused by a broken steering column but a broken upper rear suspension arm. aledgedly the Williams team found that one of the rear arms had cracked in practice as the Imola was so bumpy and they couldn't get any more replacements before the race, so they had to try and weld the cracked arm before the race. i would be guessing but it was probably made of cast magnesium. of course its history now but the rear suspension broke again as he turned into a flat out left hander and the car went straight ahead into a retaining wall. unfortunatly one of the rear suspension springs, which lay flat in some open wheelers, broke free and hit the back of Senna's head. the coroner also found that he had broken his neck due to the impact with the retaining wall, but he would have been already dead by then.
this is why the Williams team was faceing man slaughter charges, the last piece of news i heard was that the F1 board had forced the italian courts to drop the charges or italy would never get another F1 race.
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2003 : 07:31:58 AM
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Clearly if what you are saying about the dropping of the charges is true, then there was a price on a humans life. I say charge the buggers and to hell with the sport. Money over ruled the life of a human. 
I wonder if this happens in motorcyle racing! |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Former Member
deleted
63 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2003 : 7:59:24 PM
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No not true, there was a show on Foxtel a couple of weeks ago called semics seconds, what caused the crash was the pace car (1st time it had been used)was out for a long time and the tire pressure dropped thru lack of heat and on the next lap after the pace went off the ground clear had dimished and the car bottom out causing the tires to lose contact with the tarmac and bang straight into the wall. Yes it was a suspenion rod that got him after he hit the wall.
So no cover up or F1 pressure to drop the case. |
TA |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2003 : 8:12:23 PM
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I understand the part which failed on the Ferrari was the steering column which had been shortened. Doesn't matter, the principal is the same. In Australia we use AS1554.1- Welding of Steel Structures for all simple welding on buildings. What it requires is for the welder to have a qualified procedure. You qualify a weld by setting your parameters and welding test pieces for fillet and butt welds, then a mcro etch is done to test penetration, and a tensile to test strenght. After this you can use the procedure for all your welds where the particular material and configuration is used.
What I'm talking about is welding handrails and staircases - not suspension components or steering components on racing cars. This uses aircraft quality welds and the requirements are even more stringent.
You will admit that the above makes what we do on historic motorcycles look very sick.
Another thing - I often scrutineer racing cars for Benalla Auto Club as a CAMS Official. We LOOK at aluminium wheels to see if they are cracked - absolute bullsh*t, you can't usually see the cracks without doinf dye penetrant checking - another area covered by an Australian Standard.
I'd point out that wheels coming off cars is every circuit owner's nightmare. At Winton a few years ago a little girl was killed by one, that's why there's a catch fence on the other side of the circuit from turn one!
Ayrton Senna's death was probably GROSS NEGLIGENCE and should attract a MANSLAUGHTER charge.
Best Regards, |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2003 : 12:17:13 PM
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The reason we employ engineers is to do theoretical stress analysis before we manufacture parts. The next step is to define the manufacturing process, and perform rigourous testing on the pre-production batch. Problem is that in the Defence Factories I used to work in, noone ever heard the wrord 'prototype'. Result was that several batches of equipment were produced with every item different from each other.
There are currently no Australian Standards on reliability engineering. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 7:26:27 PM
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Scotty et al,
You might find these pictures of the failed part on Ayrton Senna's WILLIAMS interesting:
You must be logged in to see this link.
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 7:18:12 PM
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| I believe when you race you take the risk yourself. Nobody forces anybody to race. All this talk about somebody else being responsible for death is rubbish. Personally I do not value life as others in the western world do, so that may explain my opinion, but this laying off of blame to anybody who cannot dodge it is ruining society as we know it. Its about time honest people got involved and kicked the plaintiff lawyers and their expert witnesses out into the street. Then the rest of us can get on with falling off slides,getting hit with lightening, having tree branches fall on us, slipping on oil at a race track, hitting logs at Enduros meetings, slipping on banana skins and having good luck and bad luck. At the moment we have good luck and opportunities to sue. So sack expert witnesses and plaintiff lawyers and let life return to normal! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 9:33:03 PM
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| John, The suggestion has been made that riders/drivers should sign a declaration that their vehicles etc. conform to all the MA/CAMS requirements, before being allowed to race. This would effectively place the onus onto the competitor (and the circuit owner). Would you be willing to sign away your right to sue under common law? Let's forget about scrutineering in future, this places other people at a risk, which is rightfully the competitors'! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 07:28:37 AM
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| The waters are being deliberately muddied here. I have no personel problem signing away a right to sue. BUT I believe it should be taken away from everybody. In cases where negligence by a manufacturer is a factor I believe the Crown should cover damges with a system like TAC and the Crown would then sue the manufacturer for damages. That way everybody that genuinely needed help would get it and the money spent on those leeches Expert witnesses and their playmate Plaintiff lawyers would be left out to dry. I believe scrutineering is still helpful but I would ensure the crutineers were not in trouble, they are there to help ourselves, they are not there to be expert witnesses. If competitors feel the scrutineers are protecting them from other competiotors, perhaps their attitude about, and cooperation with scrutineers should improvefirst.I do not think track owners should be liable for anything they have not been advised about. With increased speeds at tracks today, circuits that were quite "unsafe"" in the sense of run off distances are now becoming unsafe, Riders have to learn to work with the facilities, otherwise we will not have facilities |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 10:32:25 AM
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John, It becomes very difficult to sustain an industry where nobody is responsible or accountable. A few years ago I slid down the road on the top of my headd at Winton. If I hadn't rolled over before I connected with a small bump on the circuit, I would have dislocated another part other than my collarbone. I'd probably be dead now. Is Winton responsible for ensuring the track surface is smooth? Are they responsible for putting curbs in the 'right' places? When the sh*t hits the fan, we find out in court (too late).
I wonder about the warnings given by officials to riders at Broadford, about the circuit being 'dangerous'. Obviously the throttle works both ways, but we have known about the lack of run -off for years, even before the circuit was built.
The speeds we are getting to these days (I believe 385 kph at PI) are pretty scary, and as a result we look like losing Phillip Island. Two riders seriously injured at the GP, and the V8 supercars won't even race there. It's not the circuit, it's the vehicles. (the tyre barriers are a problem). We'd all be better off racing single cylinder 500cc and 350cc four strokes. We would actually have more fun!
I suggest it's a matter of making the sport 'safe', not about who sues who. These kids riding R1s are really putting our sport at risk! |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2003 : 01:12:30 AM
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If anyone who races a vehcile of some sort does not know that MOTOR RACING CAN KILL then they should hang up the helmet.
I for one am just bloody greatful that I can race my butt off on some great and not great looking tracks and not have to worry about speeding tickets and reckless riding charges etc.
I would like you to consider the real racers of the 20s and 30s,
they raced in any condition on surfaces that make Broadford look world class by comparison,
rode on tyres that are questionable at best and the riding gear that consisted of nothing more than a glorified ice cream container for a helmet,and the most primitave of leathers that I wouldnt even use riding a pushbike.
The standards of todays gear and tracks are far better than yesteryear so be thankful you didnt have to enjoy your sport back then.
Ahh,Happiness is testing a 125GP bike at Broady on old shagged slicks for the first time!!!
Isnt racing about having a good weekend with your race mates and other crews aswell?
Dont bag the quality of tracks now when they built and have been functioning reasonably well for years.
If you think a certain circuit could be hazardous to you health stay on the sidelines and watch someone else race or better still flag marshall the event.
Regards
Neill
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Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2003 : 11:41:42 AM
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A comment was made to me about the number of deaths at a circuit somewhere south of Melbourne. The comment was that the fatalities are very bad for the sport. The circuit owner is on the National Safety Council of Australia for one very good reason - so he won't have to spend money replacing his tyre barriers with concrete walls. It's simply to keep other people off his back!
At one small meeting one car ran into the barrier, compressed the tyres and bounced up into the spectator area (which was fortunately empty).
It's OK to talk about the delights of testing your bike at Broady - good luck to you, there should be more of it. But we all have a responsibilty to complain if the circuits don't meet certain standards. When an official gets up at Broady and states that 'motorcycling in dangerous, and this circuit is particularly dangerous', that says something is wrong!!
I know you all love Broady, but for the good of the sport - 'make it SAFE'. And by the term 'safe', I mean 'a situation or condition where the risks are tolerable to ALL stakeholders'. That includes families of competitors, and other circuit owners, sponsors and promoters. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2003 : 11:45:24 AM
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| Another thing you might like to think about. - It wouldn't be difficult to prohibit motorcycling in any state in Australia. A while back the doctors were making noises about it. We are all subject to public opinion. I suggest we must be seen to be acting responsibly. Noone else wants to pay for your life as a quadraplegic (even as a taxpayer). |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 07:45:49 AM
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Alan you have a couple of mistakes. Every rider at every track is told motorcycle racing is dangerous, not just at Broadford. PI is not closed to bikes, the top speed was just under 330kpm not 385kph. As for you hitting kerbs, I dont believe Winton should face the music, you chose to ride there end if story, otherwise where does it finish with the bloke who sold the land to the Benalla Race club because he contributed to a situation where somebody was hurt. The kerbs went in in good faith, if you were worried you should not ride there. Personally I belive the sport is safe, but has high risks. So does crossing the road. THE WAY I SEE YOUR ENTRIES EVERYTRACK EXCEPT WINTON IS NOT SUITABLE FOR USE AS A MOTORCYCLE TRACK, PERHAPS YOU PAY PACKET IS INFLUENCING THE THINKING PROCESS ALAN.
Basically we all know we are in a high risk sport, all tracks have issues, but if we rode taking into account these issues we will not have a problem. As somebody once commentted, the trottle works both ways!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 08:27:10 AM
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OK, I have had enough of this crap.. We are way off topic now and would like to apologise to Scott316 for hijacking his topic.
I agree with John to a certain extent. If you choose to ride at a track, then the onus is on you to only go as fast as you can handle it, not what your bike will do.
I also see Alan's point. If you take away the right to sue, then what is to stop a track owner from not maintaining the track due to the cost and making the track unsafe? Then we will have deaths that could of been avoided.
I know people will just go else where, but eventually all tracks would close as they will not be rideable, thus putting an end to Classic/Historic motorcycle racing as we know it.
So basically I think you are both some what right, so can you please kiss and make-up?  
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 4:14:49 PM
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John, I'm not often paid by Winton. I get upset at being levied on my licence to pay for Broadford and then finding out it might be more dangerous than other places. I have never ridden there, but my brother has. He rode a silly historic BSA outfit with Jim Carter in the sidecar. Ran off into the off-camber outside the pits, and had real trouble keeping off the fence. My brother is a pretty good rider, however even Jim (no sense no feeling)had the wind up.
Best Regards, |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 4:30:01 PM
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Gday Alan, lets agree to disagree as David has suggestted.
Just ride at Broadford and make up your own mind about the place. Best regards |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 5:35:15 PM
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| I take your point John. Next interclub at Broady, I'll be there. |
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