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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 12:23:52 PM
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This was sent to me from Ross Martin (Commissioners Manager - MA):
These are items that have been submitted to the Commission for consideration. Not all will become rules, but it is good to get some discussion and suggestions on these items.
 Download Attachment: You must be logged in to see this link.
164.7 KB
Please have an open and relevant discussion on the proposed changes.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Former Member
deleted
10 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 5:23:20 PM
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G'day All. I was wondering if there is enough support out there to put forward a submission to MA changing the ruling on capacity to "Stock cylinder Sleeves" as 5% just misses most of the cheap piston kits that we would all prefer to use.It's easier and more cost effective to just get a wiseco or similar kit than try to keep a motor stock size.
Regards Chris Munn.
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 6:10:59 PM
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I note that the abbreviated notes have left out the National Historic Commission's comments about the capacity rule.
"While understanding the principle of this motion, the Commission believes that the 2003 introduced classes of Period 3 Formula 700 and Period 4 Formula 750 caters for this. As it caters for those that would like to compete at original capacities without adversely affecting those presently competing with ‘big bore’ machines that were built in accordance with the present rules. The Commission believes that give{n} sufficient time these ‘new’ classes will show where the majority of competitors wish the capacity of unlimited bikes to be."
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 6:18:24 PM
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Personal comment coming up.
I must reveal a personal interest here, I have just completed the manufacture of an over sized CB750 engine for my sidecar.
But it is also my understanding that attempts to impose manufacturers bore and stroke has been discussed many times over the years and dismised each time.
My own discussions with riders over the last few years has revealed that implementation of such a rule now would eliminate a lot of existing machines. It may be too late to push through such a change now, for existing machines.
But the promotion of the 700cc and the 750cc class within P3 and P4 might take the pressure off the push for more of these motors.
I can say I hope we get the old 650cc sidecar class re established also. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 19 Jun 2004 11:52:08 AM |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 05:15:31 AM
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I notice with these rules that the motors are getting bigger and the brakes smaller. While some of us might believe that bigger motors are better, the sport is moving substantially away from the way it was 'in the era'. These days all the guys seem to only want to run on the small circuits to equalise the effects of having big motors on some bikes.
On the matter of period 4 brakes (HRR 205) Lockheed magnesium calipers are becoming rarer, and the Ducati (Scarab) copy is very similar in appearance (uses the same pads) and only costs $100 at Eurobrit. I believe the rules should allow use of these as well as 'four fin' Lockheeds, if we are to get more P4 bikes out there.
On the matter of crakcase induction/rotary valves on P3 Bultacos (HRR202). I don't care if Kevin Cass had a Bultaco with rotary valves. Doesn't mean that EVERY P3 two stroke is entitled to have them. If you are building a copy of that particular bike - use the rotary valve, otherwise FORGET IT! Does this rule mean that every G50 Matchless can now be Four Valve, just because Alec Henderson had one?
What we are going to end up racing with is a perfect motorcycle with all the bits from year dot up to the present to make it better. It won't be like anything that ever existed. It'll be bigger, faster, handle immaculately. Why don't the guys simply race an R1? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 05:29:35 AM
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I suggest the answer to a lot of this eligibility stuff is to move attention away from 'what COULD have existed' towards 'what DID exist'. The bikes should be either original and 'as raced back then' or faithful replicas.
How many spectators want to come to a historic meeting to see a lot of brewed up/non original old bikes scrapping at modern speeds?
Personally I go to see F model Manxes, original G45s, Guzzi V8s, Velocette Roarers - OOPS!! - perhaps I should go and live in New Zealand? If the dumb Kiwis can 'do it right', why can't we? (And they don't have as much money as us!) |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 08:03:40 AM
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Just out of interest Alan, how can you support InCa bikes and make the statement above. Surely InCa machines are the ultimate,'Coodabeen if we only knew how" machines.
But at the same time I am aware there is an argument for the fact that Australia did produce a miriad of "specials", the details of which have probaly never been kept for verification purposes. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 08:52:39 AM
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 I am still thinking about this new set of rules "BUT" I believe the 5% over size rule was in fact in proposed rule's 3/4 years ago when we were all warned of changes, so why now is there bitchin'  and brakes did no body read the changers when first mensioned on this web site a few years ago or dont people read the rule book each year!!  And what year well! If crank is from 1990 bike then bike is 1990 other spare bike is now spare major part, Motor Frame what ever so just rebuild all the new bits into crank cases remember when engine number had to be on entrie forms!!  dont be shy  just read the rules as written and all will be OK lolo  maybe the short stroke Triumph will come out again!!  its full legal from the 57 onwards 5 speed clusters yes they were around in the late 50's either pommy or german made so whats new!! |
Allan Greening |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 08:58:58 AM
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| was it hhr 082, is on the web some here. What did MA tell us All B_S David can probably find it again and put a link to hhr082?? |
Allan Greening |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 2:16:56 PM
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John, I support InCA bikes because they represent the ultimate development of manxes and G50s without losing the appearance. I've been told that Andy Molnar manxes have a different downdraft angle - how would the casual observer ever pick it? That none of the engine parts fit an early manx - So? The point is that the bikes are fairly faithful replicas of a fifties manx - something that DID EXIST!
I can understand Ken McIntosh being upset that his 62 Manx copies don't sell as well, and I can understand the New Zealanders taking action to keep InCA away - noone likes to be blown to the weeds by someone simply 'doing it better'.
The words are 'visually and technically compatible with the era'! This means to me that InCA machines should lose their Interspan electronic ignitions.
Note: InCA machines are NOT OVER CAPACITY. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 4:26:14 PM
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| Seems very curious that Ross Martin from MA would choose to edit out the comissioners comments on the engine size idea. How much else has he edited out and is it possible to see the true records of this meeting. Also the comission agrees and disagrees on a few ideas put up, is it possible to find out who puts up the ideas so they can be maybe supported or perhaps not, and how do you actually comment on things. And anyway didn't the rule book just address the big bore bikes by creating the 750 classes. I'm starting to think something stinks here. |
Jayne |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 5:35:17 PM
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Jayne, the method is to work through your club and State Contorlling Body.
As a member of the Vic. HMC I have forwared a copy of the original minutes to all those in Vic who I know wants them or has asked. I can send you a set if you like.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 5:59:44 PM
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John,
I asked for a set and have still not received them, why?
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 7:46:55 PM
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| John. This is starting to sound like a secret boys club. If the original minutes can be sent to anyone then forget about your special list and post them on this web site so everyone can read them. And what the hell is going on if you're sending around the original minutes and MA is treating everyone with contempt and sending around their personal edited/sanitised version. |
Jayne |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 12:12:11 AM
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I do not know why there are two sets of the minutes. I offered David Greening a set when Ross Martin sent me one earlier, but David advised he felt it was better to be approached directly by MA, so I put them up on the You must be logged in to see this link. site instead, under documents.
When I was sent the set by Ross Martin, we had a phone discussion where I was asked if the Vic HMC could review them, after having sought comments from the HMRAV and other interested parties in Victoria. I mentioned I would distribute them through my normal channels to anybody who was interested to comment.
Normally the procedure is that each State deals with the clubs within that state. This web site has of course openned up a lot more opportunities for people to be involved.
It is my understanding that all State Controlling Bodies and HMC's obtained a copy at a similiar time.
It was only when I read the set on this site and noticed there were differences that I spoke with the National Commissioners to see if there was a mistake. Thats when I placed the note on this site about the difference.
It is not for me to forget my list, I do my job as well as I can, I did not doctor the books.
David Greening has established procedures to receive and place MA documents on the site that he has previously explained on this site somewhere. When I offered them he explained that he wanted to maintain his procedure.
Maybe Ross has a reason for the difference he can explain. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 12:46:35 AM
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Can you please remind when this was, just that I do not have a copy of anything to suggest this. All private messages, and e-mails have been checked and there is nothing to say I want it from MA, but I do have something requesting it from you.quote:
Originally posted by john
I do not know why there are two sets of the minutes. I offered David Greening a set when Ross Martin sent me one earlier, but David advised he felt it was better to be approached directly by MA, so I put them up on the You must be logged in to see this link. site instead, under documents.
I would like to be approched by MA with the full facts, and not the half truths as what has happened by the looks of it.quote:
Originally posted by john
David Greening has established procedures to receive and place MA documents on the site that he has previously explained on this site somewhere. When I offered them he explained that he wanted to maintain his procedure.
Maybe Ross has a reason for the difference he can explain.
I would be interested in seeing what explainantion there is from MA on this? Ross or even David White could e-mail me and advise why MA have only given this site (which seems to be a great media for the Classic/Post Classic or Historic riders) only a partial break down of the minutes.
I will advise though, that if I find it an un-acceptable answer, I may publish the e-mail on this site. I thought that we were going great guns helping out and all of a sudden something like this happens, no wonder I ask why sometimes...
If MA would help out by supplying the true and correct account of things, I am only to willing to help out and share the information with the riders.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 09:34:29 AM
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David, you and I have talked over the phone and at Phillip Island when we shared the house for the Island Classic. For a long time I thought you had made the observation that I stated above, that you preferred a direct approach from MA when it came to information and documents. In fact, with a site search I can only find this reference from 19 Feb. 2004.from you in writing.
"On the note from Allan, yes this is a privately run site from both Allan and myself and is in no way run by MA. We have asked MA for input to help Classic/Post Classic & Historic riders out, but these calls have been ignored from as high up as David White (CEO MA)."
If you think I am putting words in your mouth I apologise, and I hope this thread does not get muddled by who said what when, but as I have said in a private message, there may be an email from my office address.
But more to the point;
Do you have a policy about accepting MA documents from anybody or MA direct only?
I have sent you a copy of the original set I was given to your email address this morning, Sunday.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 20 Jun 2004 09:45:42 AM |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 10:16:13 AM
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John,
Yes both Allan and I would like more input from MA to inform riders that is correct and well known, but I still can not recall this conversation at Phillip Island, and I am sure it was not on the phone as I have not spoken to you on the phone about this type of help.quote:
Originally posted by john
David, you and I have talked over the phone and at Phillip Island when we shared the house for the Island Classic. For a long time I thought you had made the observation that I stated above, that you preferred a direct approach from MA when it came to information and documents.
With your search to topic: You must be logged in to see this link. I did say the below, but it no where states I only want input from MA. If MA have not supplied the information, then we are relying on people like you John to help out and supply the information, which we are greatful for.quote:
Originally posted by john
In fact, with a site search I can only find this reference from 19 Feb. 2004.from you in writing.
"On the note from Allan, yes this is a privately run site from both Allan and myself and is in no way run by MA. We have asked MA for input to help Classic/Post Classic & Historic riders out, but these calls have been ignored from as high up as David White (CEO MA)."
Yes it did look that this:quote:
Originally posted by john
If you think I am putting words in your mouth I apologise, and I hope this thread does not get muddled by who said what......
I have answered this, but will again and for the record.
If anyone has information that relates to Classic/Post Classic or Historic racing in Australia that will affect the sport, please do not be shy to send it in to this site so it can be published. If you do not want your name published next to it, then let me know in your e-mail and I will not publish your name.quote:
Originally posted by john
But more to the point;
Do you have a policy about accepting MA documents from anybody or MA direct only?
Thanks for the copy you have of the minutes, this is it now attached to the topic.
Download Attachment: You must be logged in to see this link.
59.17 KBquote:
Originally posted by john
I have sent you a copy of the original set I was given to your email address this morning, Sunday.
All said and done, we now need to get the discussion in the right direction.
If people could put up their comments on either of the minutes, it would be great.
If MA could supply the full information from now on, that would be great. All we want to do at this site, is give Classic/Post Classic or Historic racing in Australia a fair go with the correct facts.
I can see the Karma Bus travelling down the road...
Enough of me now, come on folks, lets show MA we care about the sport and what to improve it and make it better for everyone. I am doing my bit, how about you?
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 12:07:03 PM
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| The Victorian Historic management COmmittee is meeting either this MOnday at the MV rooms or later in the week. If anybody wants to make a submission in writing, get it along for study. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 3:58:19 PM
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| I think everyone should download and read the TRUE minutes (as opposed to Ross Martins "feed them bull**** version") of the historic meeting that David has now been able to make available. If you go to the end of the TRUE minutes one of the extra points is HRR226 which says that the rules and classes should be left alone. Also HRR222 tells us that the titles will be in Tassie next year, and HRR223 tells us that the comissioners are seriouly looking at the indian Enfield. But you have to be seriously concerned why Ross Martin decided to omit the comissions negative responce to changing the capicity rule and also the pre war rule, read the TRUE HRR216 & 217. If the comissioners are representing us to MA then its fair to assume that Ross Martin put up these new rules and is a bit pissed that he has been chalenged over wanting things his way and has spat the dummy. That raises the question of who is he, we went back through years of programs and it appears he doesn't ride a bike, so we've got another armchair expert at MA. Makes you wonder if the MA secret agenda is to have historic bikes just go away. |
Jayne |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 9:34:06 PM
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| GO FOR 'EM, JAYNE. The process is supposed to be democratic, transparent, and CONSENSUS BASED!!!! - It comes under the topic 'the rules of etiquette', and applies to all clubs and associations! If you believe someone is exercising undue influence or bias or is undermining the democratic process - please SAY SO! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 9:42:36 PM
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Some how I think I mentioned this a while ago a few times on this very site...quote:
Originally posted by Snoozer
Makes you wonder if the MA secret agenda is to have historic bikes just go away.
Ross, are you going to comment on the 2 different sets of minutes? Or if Ross is not going to do it, can we please have an official of MA (maybe David White (CEO) or even Mark Fattore (Media Manager)) please inform us as to how this had happened.
I am only to willing to send the original e-mails to whom ever wants a copy from an official at MA.  |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 11:03:14 AM
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| Fellas can we start to focus on the message now please. We have a meeting coming up in Vic. and it would help to have some feedback. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 07:16:15 AM
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| I decided to track down a comissioner to try and find out if they have anything at all to do with classic racing or if they are just puppets for MA or Ross Martin. The one we picked on was Alan Kidd because at least we knew he races and wasn't to hard to find. Up front I'd have to say I've now spoke to worlds only living heart donor. I naturally asked why Ross Martin dishonestly put a set on minutes on this website that had been tampered with, I was told pretty abruptly to ring Ross Martin and ask him. He then went strait on to tell me he had no intention of discussing Ross Matins actions but would talk to me about the minutes themselves. I said that i rekoned that wasn't good enough and i'll quote his answer "what part of no don't you understand". So to try and get on his good side I said we are with the comissioners on the engine size rule change, and he told me tell our club so they can answer. I asked him why MA were wanting to tamper with the existing rules rather than coming up with ways to get more people racing, his answer to that was only to ask me what ideas i had. I asked what he knew about sidecars, and he told me they had 3 wheels, so i said you should know more than that if you change sidecar rules, he said he seeks expert opinion if he has to. I asked him how Ross Martin could interfere with racing when he doen't know one end of a bike from the other, he told me that Ross Martin is nothing more than a MA employee and has no such power. He then told me he had to get back to work and told me to go to our club who will go to our state who will reply to MA. I won't forget what he said to me then, "its no good wingeing and whining on web sites, you're just a voice in the wilderness you have to respond through your club and they will do the rest. At least he said goodbye when he hung up. We'd been told he was a bit more cruisy and casual than how he came across on the phone, I rekon I spoke to someone who was in damage control because MA got caught out. I think the time is right for everyone to answer the minutes while MA is licking it wounds. |
Jayne |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 07:35:02 AM
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So I take it you have checked out You must be logged in to see this link. topic. Pretty much they are in damage control, but only seem to be opening their mouth to change their feet.
MA do not like it when you tell them that you will quote them on the site. Al Kidd used to post here, then deceided to not bother anymore, then this week he re-registered again. I think that Brian-R Payne (we know General Manager - MA) was trying to shut me up from making comments and that was why he wanted me to call him and then I hung up on him.
Brian-R, if you do not want comments postedon the site, then get your media manager to do it for you. I know you have one of those as I have his business card on my desk.
Lets do it right or you may end up out of a job MA, cause if you are doing it (screwing) to this site that has no financials in the sport, then you have to be doing it to the others that has anything to do with Classic/Post Class & Historic motorcycle racing in Australia and have a financial interest in the sport of motorcycle racing in Australia.
As far as I am concerned, MA have already deceided what they are doing and the comments on the minutes means jack to anyone. Sorry but I have not and will not take it anymore, and will stand up for the right thing.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 8:44:37 PM
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| David, I think you're going to be the next Rupert Murdoch! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 1:32:55 PM
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| This topic is now locked, please use the Rule Submisions for 2005 topic to reply. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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