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Former Member
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4 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 07:17:46 AM
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| Thanks for your posting David. It is nice to hear "from the horses mouth" so to speak. I stand corrected. Nevertheless, there are serious issues yet to be addressed, and as a paid employee representing racing motorcyclists, can we expect more postings that will keep us informed ? |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
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Former Member
deleted
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1 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 11:27:28 AM
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Alan Cotteral, when I heard you were involved with the Aust titles, I was looking forward to the perfect copybook meeting, after reading your letter to Classic Racer in which you criticised Australian meeting organisers, riders, and engine builders, and announced to the world that historic racing in Aust was on its death bed.
As a competitor at the meeting I can honestly state this was the most unpleasant relationship between promoters and competitors I have experienced in 35 years of racing.
Previous respondents to this topic have covered most of the points regarding lack of safety, and I do not wish repetition, but I might summarise my thoughts on the absence of any attempt at social interaction with competitors.
There were no presentations because you, the promoters, would not provide any trophies to present.
The long circuit was used for the first time in historics to promote rental of the pit garages abutting the circuit extension.
At completion of the meeting the last straw was the egocentric MA steward demanding that engines be stripped and measured prior to leaving the circuit.
The most unfortunate aspect of this sorry saga is that interstate and overseas entrants will remember this as the Victorian run, Australian title meeting, and many may not return when a proper club is awarded the privilege of this meeting in future.
Max Hooper
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Former Member
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1 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 1:57:36 PM
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Cant help myself.
Where do we start!
A program you would not see at a furneral
The rudest Clerk of Course I have ever seen.
A promoter who declared "Those people are never welcome here again"
Flaggies reading newspapers
No merchandise which perhaps reflects the contempt the promoters held for the riders.
More pushbikes in the Pits than I have seen at the Tour De France.
A BEARS bike doing 120kmp thru the pits.
Complete disregard by the Steward and the Clerk of Course of the concerns of experienced Riders who deserve better respect.
Cancellation within the Benalla Township of 35 beds from one Motel by New Zealanders who got sick of waiting for details.
The Benalla Chamber of Commerce up in arms about the poorly promoted meeting and its effect on the commerce of the town.
No presentation ceremony is contemptous.
Seemingly totally lack of Promotion.
Complete mess up of the results for the BEARS and at least they created a presentation for themselves.
As for engine pull downs without any fire extinguishers, alowing time for alloy heads to cool etc when the Supp regs did ask for motors to have lock wire holes for sealing.
This use of the Long track has confirmed that it is dangerous for Classic drum braked machines and we should be careful about using it again.
It seems as if somebody wanted to set up a plan to destroy the credability of Classic racing and allienate as many people in one hit to achieve an end we cant think of yet, they could not have done better if they tried.
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2 stroke |
Edited by - n/a on 12 Nov 2004 2:28:50 PM |
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Former Member
deleted
10 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 3:57:38 PM
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Why were motors asked to be stripped if there was no protest I am only new to racing but this does seem strange
lucky I am not fast enough and can't build engines to last more than 20 minutes cause the cb1100 takes ages to get out of the frame and all night to put back in. They didnt strip unlimited bikes did they ? If it was only capacity dont they have a special inside micrometer for that with out disasembly Chris |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 4:50:45 PM
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Welcome to Motorcycle racing Chris.
Can I encourage you to get to club meetings, race meetings and just become involved you will enjoy the experience more and get to know things a lot faster than elsewhere. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 12 Nov 2004 5:04:04 PM |
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Former Member
deleted
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3 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 08:07:15 AM
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I was there and my first question is, if a car club didn't run it, who would have?
People are complaining about stewards, clerk of course, winton people, well, some of the people racing weren't real flash either
Why didn't the motorcycling organisations throw their weight behind it?
Why was a MA event rescheduled to the same weekend, thus causing a shortage of officials?
If it was so unsafe (in peoples opinion) why did you go racing, why didn't you boycott the races or qualifiying? Being a bit hypocritical here everyone. From where I was viewing there seemed to be an awful lot of bikes on the track. If you felt unsafe with fields that other bikes in it, why did you go racing. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 09:24:21 AM
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HMRAV or any other Historic Club in SA, NSW, QLD and WA can and has run Title meetings.
Prove some racers were not flash. Anybody can make a story up like that without facts. At least every person commenting on the behaviour of others has had verifiable facts.
The HMRAV chose not to help the Benalla Car club car club because of previous bad blood between the organisations from the past. This is documented on thos web site elsewhere. Also the fact that the HMRAV had made a substantial presentation to MA to put on the event themselves, and encouraged to continue to improve the presentation even when Winton had been awarded the meeting behind our backs. SOUR GRAPES YES THE COMMITTEE IS HUMAN.
But in fairness to Mick Ronk he has explianed to us that he was not aware of any rival bid for the event and had hoped the HMRAV would help.
Dont forget that some volunteers dont like working with car clubs. And alsosome dont like the idea that a car club who may make a profit, would not be putting it back to help motorcycle racing in the future. If this was going to be the case, some information to that end may have been a good idea.
Welcome to motorcycle racing where individual states authorise individual meetings, the fact that MA chose a date which coincided with the Stars of Tommorrow a meeting which has run for 29 years is something nobody outside MA can explain. BUT I can say a motorcycle club would have known and probally shifted the Titles meeting. I can say Winton was told fairly early in the piece about the double date and they could have shifted their meeting if they wanted to.
As for your last bitter question I think it is best if you got some help with finding a brain before you repaet that one. But for a start in simple words;
People have paid between $1000 and $5000 to get ready to front.
People will generally try and make a track safer if they feel somebody will listen to them. They usually are listened too and treated fairly and politely.
A boycott would only make everybody look stupid instead of just the group that would not listen to the voice of reason look stupid.
Racers always will race, but you just take extra care and less risks at the unsafe bits. The real danger is that occasionally they forget at the unsafe section, crash unnecessarily and are up for more expences.
So you thought there were plenty of bikes. What about the 40 BEARS that normally are not at meetings and the 100 or so lower entry numbers from other meetings.
Hey, Harley David s if you are so knowledgable about these matters why do not you come over the fence and help? Or are you one of these armchair experts who are happy to share their knowledge about how others get things wrong, but never have the courage or time to show others the skills you do have. In my experience people like you have no skills.
People race because they have the courage that others dont have. You should know that Alan. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 14 Nov 2004 10:15:56 AM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 5:35:51 PM
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Just as a matter of interest. I placed a comment about the 2004 Titles having been held and finished, on that motorcport forum.
It has caused a hornets nest of responce from the facilitator who may have been the timng person.
He has suggested that all the info about the unrest is wrong.
You must be logged in to see this link.
So I dont know what happened for the this bloke Stephen to get so upset about and claim all the info.
"Whatever John - I got caught in the middle of an absolute load of **** over that weekend about who was right and who was wrong. If you think I turned on you - that's your opinion but you HAVE made a numebr of comments that are obviously second hand and have changed from what actually happened. "
So who is telling porkies?
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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3 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 6:01:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by john
HMRAV or any other Historic Club in SA, NSW, QLD and WA can and has run Title meetings.
Prove some racers were not flash. Anybody can make a story up like that without facts. At least every person commenting on the behaviour of others has had verifiable facts.
The HMRAV chose not to help the Benalla Car club car club because of previous bad blood between the organisations from the past. This is documented on thos web site elsewhere. Also the fact that the HMRAV had made a substantial presentation to MA to put on the event themselves, and encouraged to continue to improve the presentation even when Winton had been awarded the meeting behind our backs. SOUR GRAPES YES THE COMMITTEE IS HUMAN.
But in fairness to Mick Ronk he has explianed to us that he was not aware of any rival bid for the event and had hoped the HMRAV would help.
Dont forget that some volunteers dont like working with car clubs. And alsosome dont like the idea that a car club who may make a profit, would not be putting it back to help motorcycle racing in the future. If this was going to be the case, some information to that end may have been a good idea.
Welcome to motorcycle racing where individual states authorise individual meetings, the fact that MA chose a date which coincided with the Stars of Tommorrow a meeting which has run for 29 years is something nobody outside MA can explain. BUT I can say a motorcycle club would have known and probally shifted the Titles meeting. I can say Winton was told fairly early in the piece about the double date and they could have shifted their meeting if they wanted to.
As for your last bitter question I think it is best if you got some help with finding a brain before you repaet that one. But for a start in simple words;
People have paid between $1000 and $5000 to get ready to front.
People will generally try and make a track safer if they feel somebody will listen to them. They usually are listened too and treated fairly and politely.
A boycott would only make everybody look stupid instead of just the group that would not listen to the voice of reason look stupid.
Racers always will race, but you just take extra care and less risks at the unsafe bits. The real danger is that occasionally they forget at the unsafe section, crash unnecessarily and are up for more expences.
So you thought there were plenty of bikes. What about the 40 BEARS that normally are not at meetings and the 100 or so lower entry numbers from other meetings.
Hey, Harley David s if you are so knowledgable about these matters why do not you come over the fence and help? Or are you one of these armchair experts who are happy to share their knowledge about how others get things wrong, but never have the courage or time to show others the skills you do have. In my experience people like you have no skills.
People race because they have the courage that others dont have. You should know that Alan.
Ah, blinkers are a wonderful thing. I hope I am never put through the pain of historic motorcycle racing again. |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 6:47:54 PM
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quote:
Ah, blinkers are a wonderful thing. I hope I am never put through the pain of historic motorcycle racing again.
Your wish is granted turkey, winton will be avoided like the plague in the future by most forms of motor sport, so you lot can concentrate on driver training days. but watch over your shoulder for things to change, people from benalla are mighty pissed at the way winton has degenerated are say they're gonna change things. wish them luck coz any change has to be better than whats happening now. |
Jayne |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 7:32:01 PM
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HD you intrigue me. You front to make a comment, now you have taken your bags and left.
In my experience not many people are so easily put off, so how passionate were you in the first palce.
I accept that all organisations get things wrong and most try and fix it. But with yourdummy spit I guess the joy of improvement will never be an emotion for you.
I have heard tidly winks can be something to while the time away, even lawn Bowls has pepped up a bit in recent times. But i guess Classic racing will not get the benefit of your wisdom. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
4 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 10:32:13 AM
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Mr. Harley-D,
now that you have been jumped on from a great height - please don't take it personally. Your questions are valid and should be addressed.
"I was there and my first question is, if a car club didn't run it, who would have?"
I think this has been answered.
"People are complaining about stewards, clerk of course, winton people, well, some of the people racing weren't real flash either."
Not sure how to take this - yes, almost all the riders were complaining about the organisation of the event. This is the first time I have heard a spectator complain about the riders. Can you elaborate ?
"Why didn't the motorcycling organisations throw their weight behind it?"
I think this has been answered as well. I should add that at least two members of the HMRAV travelled in their own time and at their own expense to visit the Winton people a week prior to the event to try and assist.
"Why was a MA event rescheduled to the same weekend, thus causing a shortage of officials?"
Damn good point ! Why indeed. I suggest you direct this one to MA...
"If it was so unsafe (in peoples opinion) why did you go racing, why didn't you boycott the races or qualifiying? Being a bit hypocritical here everyone. From where I was viewing there seemed to be an awful lot of bikes on the track. If you felt unsafe with fields that other bikes in it, why did you go racing."
As a spectator this would seem to be a logical answer - just not go out on the track. Unfortunately we have all paid a lot of money and spent a lot of time getting to the event - people from NT, WA etc. The promoters would probably have loved it if we boycotted the event - they had our money, and now they could all go home early. One of the major problems with almost all forms of motorsport, and probably all sport, is that the competitors just want to compete. They don't want to know about the politics. We are apathetic as a nation - just look at the elections for Government. As a result, those that generally aspire to positions of power are there for a whole differnt set of reasons. The attitudes of the Clerk of Course and the MA Steward at Winton were not what a normal person would expect from people who are solely there to facilitate the running of a competition by riders, for riders. When the riders expressed their concerns - they were dismissed out of hand. Totally unacceptable in anyones book.
I don't have a problem with any of your questions, as they are from someone who is on the outside looking in, rather than the other way around, and we on the inside should bear this in mind.
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keith campbell
Level 3 Member
Victoria
248 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 11:01:52 AM
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| A question about the results posted.The first 3 positions are the only published results i have seen but i am interested in ALL results being put up from first to last.How can i see these? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 3:30:05 PM
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try this
You must be logged in to see this link. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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3 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 9:41:18 PM
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There is an assumption that I was a spectator.
I could have been, I could also have been an official, I could have been a man selling hotdogs, I could even have been a competitor.
Now wouldn't that be interesting, me a competitor, who did want to go racing, didn't want to get involved in all the politics AND actually enjoyed the weekend. Well hush my mouth.
You should stand back and have a look at yourselves.
I don't think that there were 2 competitors there on the weekend who could agree on the colour of the bitumen, let alone what should happen at a race meeting. Far too much politics, and if you all keep it up then there is no need to blame others for your downfall, you will just have to look in a mirror.
Good luck to you all. :-) |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 12:00:22 PM
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It seems that Motorcycling Tassy is gunning to be the promoter.
PO Box 1154
Glenorchy, Tas 7010
Phone: +61 (0)3 6228 2400
Fax: +61 (0)3 6228 0855
Email: mtas@southcom.com.au
Web: You must be logged in to see this link.
Office Administrator: Sheridan Lodder
President: Peter Kitto
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 6:17:46 PM
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I have picked this info up from the other site which was discussing the Title meeting;
re Push Bikes in the pits,
Why is it the job of officials to be policemen? I thought we were there to help run a race meeting, maybe I am mis-informed. Shouldn't the people attached to racing be looking after their own children and team members. And BTW, I was one of many volunteers who was challenged and spoken to like a piece of dirt by competitors and members of their teams. BIG TREV
Re Abusive riders
And what happens when the competitors/crews are talked to about something (smoking in pit lane, kids on bikes etc) and they either simply abuse the official, continue doing or simply walk away and come back 5 minutes later doing exactly the same thing?
Because this is what was happening - over and over all weekend.
Basically - and sorry to have to say this - but bike meetings are, IMHO, one of the most unprofessional races I have ever attended - and this include the upcoming RACV Energy Breakthrough which is held for SCHOOL kids - with an average attendance of over 25,000 people, even the kids know how to behave themselves - something I note that bike meetings simply do not do. STEPHEN ROWE
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 18 Nov 2004 10:27:20 AM |
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Former Member
deleted
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1 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 08:15:09 AM
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John, if you are going to quote me then quote me in context, do not, I say again DO NOT link my comments to that of Stephen Rowe as you have done above. There are 2 different people comments listed in your post above and it reads like it is coming from one person.
I think it is important that people know where these comments come from so they can read the comments in context, not your edited version.
Here is the link to the thread concerned at Motorsportforum. Just click on the link below. People will need to scroll to the bottom of the page to get the comments.
You must be logged in to see this link. |
Edited by - n/a on 18 Nov 2004 08:20:19 AM |
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Former Member
deleted
7 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 6:05:43 PM
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| John there are a lot of politics and alteria motives behind most of the comments here. You asked me not to publicly exposes them and we would reflect on the meeting taking postives out of it and work to address the negatives. Your comments surprise me a little. |
www.motorsportforum.net.au |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 11:30:03 PM
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I see where you are coming from Mathew, but I am showing that there are different viewpoints than the riders and evidence that some of the riders behaved badly.
One has even rung and mentioned since to me that he might owe some an apology for how he behaved.
The point I am making is that perhaps we all need to look at taking steps in the future to have more peace in the camp. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2004 : 12:59:02 AM
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| Dont get sucked in by them john, theres nothing to learn from wintons incompetant fiasco and mattyboy is yesterdays news. move on and make the future a success. |
Jayne |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2004 : 11:27:34 PM
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John I think that the only time riders behaved badly was probably at engine measuring time, some riders did get a bit agitated by the situation which wasnt surprising considering the events of the weekend. While the meeting administration was as poor as you could get they then tried to get serious over things such as measuring engines for capacity to the extent that one guy with a 350 Velo was asked to strip his bike for measuring when he had competed in the Unlimited Vintage races, I reckon that if it were possible to get a 350 single out to 1300 cc you could probably tell with out stripping it.
I agree with Snoozer once again, its time we put this meet behind us, it wasnt that great and we should start looking forward to our next adventures rather than dwelling on the past.
As a final comment from me on this subject has anyone else on this site who attended Winton bothered to write in to MA regarding their experiences over the weekend.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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racer7
Level 2 Member
67 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2004 : 09:05:23 AM
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To think we nearly travelled down from Townsville for the meet!
Thank the Good Lord matters overtook us and caused a cancelation of our plans!
Tassie in 05, don't think so!
We'll be back when EC or PI get the Champs!
Racer7 |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 7:08:07 PM
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Looks like Alan Cotterell is hidding as he has time to comment at this topic and even has ago at not only the HMRAV, but also some of the users here:
You must be logged in to see this link.
At the Post Classic Racing Association of NSW's forum.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 10:10:53 PM
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| No one really cares if hes hiding coz no one actually takes him seriously or ever believed a thing he said and the idiots at winton are still pretty pissed that he conned them into taking him seriously. the lesson learnt from the winton disaster was for MA to make sure that bike clubs run bike meetings or tracks that know what bikes are. alan c was unheard of until he discovered the net and will be forgotten just as quickly, unfotunately there are others like him working at MA who will continue to stuff things up unless we all watch them and stop them. |
Jayne |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 01:11:07 AM
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What a relief. I just checked out Alan Cotterells comments on that other website and we should be extremely grateful that he has found new pastures to spout his garbage. He run foul of everyone on here because of his lack of knowledge and understanding of the sport and we are well rid of him. All we need now is for Snoozer to become more positive and supportive and this web site will grow and succeed.
As a further comment to Snoozers recent statement regarding Ross Martin, in conversation with him the other day he was unaware of any movement in his position either up down sideways or out so either Snoozer is better informed than Ross regarding his position or she is just dreaming.
As I said above lets try and get more positive on this site and maybe we can encourage more participation from a larger support base which will give everyone a better feel for what we want for our sport. We will go nowhere if the comments are based on 6 or 7 regular contributors.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 1:00:51 PM
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| one final note Alan c and my self with David are the one's who started this forum, so in the early part it took US three to get the forum up and running You must give Alan c some sort of go ahead for his input !! |
Allan Greening |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 6:34:14 PM
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| David does a great job and deserves all the credit guys give him, hes dedicated to making this place a success which is why its got where it is. alan c had entirely different motives driven by ego and probably small man syndrome, he conned the idiots like winton and ross martin but anyone with half a brain saw strait thru him and relised he knew nothing about bikes, its a pity he was allowed to do so much damage with the titles. and for good guy alan from wa, ross is not very informed about anything these days but if want to believe him thats fine, i guess you were talking to him about getting back on the commish. |
Jayne |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 12:25:41 AM
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No Snoozer I wasnt talking to Ross about the Commission for the record I was asking about the leaded fuel situation for next year seeing as it was first mooted that it would be unavailable after June 2005 and unlike others I try to know what is happening in advance so I can keep at least the WA competitors informed. I find that a lot better than complaining when its to late as most competitors do.
David although Alan Cotterell may have been a regular contributor since the inception of this website I believe your actions will prove to be more of a help than a hindrance in the longer term. There is no point in allowing individuals to keep knocking the sport with out any real foundation. Make comments sure, negative and positive but make them as an informed person in a sincere way then this site will grow and quite likely help our sport always remembering many people access the site without commenting, I wonder what they think of us some times.
Anyone heard anything about 2005 Championships yet? We must be close to decision time.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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